Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3241

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    could be from her ring? or maybe she has some kind of foresight "power" like certain dunedain.

  2. #3242
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I wonder if the fact that Galadriel spent so much time with Melian could have anything to do with this. Actually the mirror is a tool and not a skill, so it can be that Melian told her how to make it or in any case taught her the skills how to read the future.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Afraid not; magic is an obscure topic, especially when beyond "he/she could do that" or "that item did so", that would require a great deal of investigation and analysis.

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  4. #3244
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    thanks for trying anyway
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Oh wise and powerful loremasters, I seem to have a got myself into a bit of a debate about trolls and evil men. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3-TROLLS/page3

    The main debate is basically could trolls serve people other than Sauron? In the Hobbit they appear to be capable of independence but that isn't necessarily the same as being used by the Haradrim/men of Rhun or even the same as being manipulated by Saruman.
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  6. #3246

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think the core point to remember is that Tolkien isn't entirely consistent, as his world evolved somewhat with his writings. Personally, I treat LotR (the books. duh) as canon, and everything else, including Unfinished Tales (so called because I haven't managed to read all of them yet...), as "secondary canon". This is because LotR is the most well-known of his novels and, apart from the Hobbit, the most complete one dealing with Middle-earth. It's also "more canon" than The Hobbit because of the way the story evolved (TH can be read as a standalone novel).
    Based on that, some elements in TH could be read as idiosyncrasies - for instance, the trolls in LotR never show the kind of human-like behaviour as they do in TH, instead it's transferred to the Orcs.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I completely agree with you - one of my points was trolls aren't intelligent enough to get over their dislike of men. In The Hobbit, they clearly seem to be capable of at least the most basic human intelligence but I don't like using The Hobbit for lore on any subject other than things we have no alternative source for. Partly because it's a children's fairytale (so facts are much more easily distorted) and partly because Tolkien wrote it before he'd properly developed Middle Earth and iirc, he planned to rewrite it more in keeping with the LOTR.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Will try to drop by give 2 cents; to advocate how their intelligence should not be underestimated, and that trolls as 'tamed beasts' is movie fiction

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    Default What did the Dunedain do for entertainment/recreation? What was their art and high culture like?

    Just out of curiosity, has anyone collected passages from Tolkien's works to highlight or construct a view of how the average rural and urban Dunedain lived? What sort of higher culture did the Dunedain possess? Their achievements in the realm of visual arts is pretty obvious (e.g. Gates of Argonath, the Pillars of Kings statues being the double equivalent of the Colossus of Rhodes). However, what was the nature of their literature and theatrical drama, if they had any? I can at least recall historical literature like the Scroll of Isildur.

    I'm assuming most of their outdoor sports had to do with martial exercises, like equestrian games and archery practice. However, what other activities did they engage in, besides drinking ale and smoking pipe weed all day like those shiftless northern heathens from Bree? Aside from song and dance, or even the presence of jesters and jugglers, what sort of indoor leisure activities did they enjoy? Did Tolkien ever mention anyone playing board games akin to chess and the like? I'm just curious. Also, did Tolkien mention anything about jousting tournaments for knights? Seeing how Gondor more or less mirrors historical feudal Europe during the High Middle Ages.

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    Default Re: What did the Dunedain do for entertainment/recreation? What was their art and high culture like?

    we know at least that they loved hunting if that helps you
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    Default Re: What did the Dunedain do for entertainment/recreation? What was their art and high culture like?

    In a way Arnor and Gondor seem alot like the ancient egyptians, at least they've got some influences. Like the sceptre of Annúminas and stuff, the tall crown. But in terms of acitivities, i'd look more at the Byzantines and Rome. I feel like Gondor is the Byzantine empire of Middle Earth, while Arnor would be Rome, which fell. And ofcourse Númenor being the Roman Empire as a whole. That's kinda how i see it, so i imagine the Dúnedain having the same type of activities that these people had.

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    Default Re: What did the Dunedain do for entertainment/recreation? What was their art and high culture like?

    @Atthias, that's certainly worthy of mentioning, although hunting was a recreational sport in nearly every ancient and medieval civilization. What did people in Gondor do that made them unique or different from any other? That's what I'm getting at here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch-Balrog View Post
    In a way Arnor and Gondor seem alot like the ancient egyptians, at least they've got some influences. Like the sceptre of Annúminas and stuff, the tall crown. But in terms of acitivities, i'd look more at the Byzantines and Rome. I feel like Gondor is the Byzantine empire of Middle Earth, while Arnor would be Rome, which fell. And ofcourse Númenor being the Roman Empire as a whole. That's kinda how i see it, so i imagine the Dúnedain having the same type of activities that these people had.
    Yes, and in that same token the Elves are akin to the Greeks. Tolkien was never shy about using actual history as a framework for his fictional universe. That being said, it doesn't appear to me that the Dunedain people of Arnor and Gondor celebrated life in the same way as the Greeks or Romans did. I don't remember Tolkien saying anything about Olympic style games, or chariot racing, or gladiatorial combat. They seem much more like Europe during the High Middle Ages. If Tolkien mentioned it at all in passing anywhere in his books, I'd imagine he would highlight the idea that the entertainments and pastimes enjoyed by the people of Gondor allude to the same that existed in medieval Europe.

  13. #3253
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Activities for fun or recreation are not well know, but we can find or deduce some things at a glance. I'm sure there are more and more elaborate examples out there, but this I found at a look around.

    Concerning the forefathers on Númenor/the founders of their culture we have some examples and clues:
    In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Númenóreans, both men and women, took delight, and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly.
    ...
    Axes and spears and bows they had, and shooting with bows on foot and on horseback was a chief sport and pastime of the Númenóreans.
    ...
    Beyond all other pursuits the strong men of Númenor took delight in the Sea, in swimming, in diving, or in small craft for contests of speed in rowing or sailing.
    - UT; A Description of the Island of Númenor


    Minstrels they brought also, singers who remembered songs of: Elves and Men in the days of Nargothrond and Gondolin long ago;
    - UT; The Mariner's Wife


    For the Dúnedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in the making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace. Above all arts they nourished shipbuilding and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again since the world was diminished; and voyaging upon the wide seas was the chief feat and adventure of their hardy men in the gallant days of their youth.
    (...)
    But Elendil did all that his father had bidden, and his ships lay off the east coast of the land; and the Faithful put aboard their wives and their children, and their heirlooms, and great store of goods. Many things there were of beauty and power, such as the Númenóreans had contrived in the days of their wisdom, vessels and jewels, and scrolls of lore written in scarlet and black.
    (...)
    ...its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever.
    - Silm; Akallabeth
    And from when they fell from grace we know they enjoyed decadence and feasting:
    But the fear of death grew ever darker upon them, and they delayed it by all means that they could; and they began to build great houses for their dead, while their wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life, or at the least of the prolonging of Men's days. Yet they achieved only the art of preserving incorrupt the dead flesh of Men, and they filled all the land with silent tombs in which the thought of death was enshrined in the darkness. But those that lived turned the more eagerly to pleasure and revelry, desiring ever more goods and more riches;
    ...
    Great harbours and strong towers they made [in Middle-earth], and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers. And the great ships of the Númenóreans were borne east on the winds and returned ever laden, and the power and majesty of their kings were increased; and they drank and they feasted and they clad themselves in silver and gold.
    - Silm; Akallabeth

    Which parts that remained present in the Exile culture is less easy to say, but we have some further examples from Gondor, when Faramir describes weaknesses that remained, and some historical, mystic and seemingly alchemistics interests held by the lords:
    'Death was ever present, because the Númenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living. and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anárion had no heir.'
    - TTT; The Window on the West
    The interests among the Dunedain had during the Age grown less soficsticated and more 'wordly', with warfare held high and martial skill a sport as well as the prime skill.
    That do not however mean that the ideal Dunedain have not skills and interests broader than so.
    `Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days.'
    - Faramir, TTT; The Window on the West


    ‘But things may change when Faramir returns. He is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field.
    - Beregond about Faramir, RotK; Minas Tirith
    The Dunedain still like songs, for toil, leisure or celebration alike:
    And last and proudest, [came] Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.
    (...)
    Street all the bells in the towers tolled solemnly. Lights sprang in many windows, and from the houses and wards of the men at arms along the walls there came the sound of song.
    - walking in Minas Tirith, RotK; Minas Tirith


    ...a minstrel of Gondor stood forth, and knelt, and begged leave to sing. ... And all the host laughed and wept, and in the midst of their merriment and tears the clear voice of the minstrel rose like silver and gold, and all men were hushed. And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.
    - RotK; The Field of Cormallen
    They can throw a party for victories, and the ruler have a hall ready for the fun activities:
    All things were now made ready in the City; and there was great concourse of people, for the tidings had gone out into all parts of Gondor, from Min-Rimmon even to Pinnath Gelin and the far coasts of the sea; and all that could come to the City made haste to come. And the City was filled again with women and fair children that returned to their homes laden with flowers; and from Dol Amroth came the harpers that harped most skilfully in all the land; and there were players upon viols and upon flutes and upon horns of silver, and clear-voiced singers from the vales of Lebennin.
    - RotK; The Steward and the King


    [Éomer] was welcomed; and when they sat all at table in Merethrond, the Great Hall of Feasts, he beheld the beauty of the ladies that he saw and was filled with great wonder.
    - RotK; Many Partings
    The Dúnedain also were perfectly familiar with wine and ale, so they would not been too boring to hang around when occasions offered themselves.


    The Black Númenóreans apperently had a preference for powerful knowledge:
    But it is told that [the Mouth of Sauron] was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge.
    - RotK; The Black Gate Opens
    I have less to tell about the Arnorian Dúnedain, but apperently they in their never ending guerilla warfare against evil were not keen on making songs about it. However, they did sometimes fancy to have a drink at an inn and tell tales about their adventures and travels hehe:
    When the kingdom [Arnor] ended the Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became a secret and wandering people, and their deeds and labours were seldom sung or recorded.
    - Appendix A


    They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.
    (...)
    He [Aragorn] had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved...
    [Barliman said:] 'He is one of the wandering folk — Rangers we call them. He seldom talks: not but what he can tell a rare tale when he has the mind.'
    - FotR; At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
    Last edited by Ngugi; April 03, 2016 at 07:24 PM.

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  14. #3254
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Activities for fun or recreation are not well know, but we can find or deduce some things at a glance. I'm sure there are more and more elaborate examples out there, but this I found at a look around.

    Concerning the forefathers on Númenor/the founders of their culture we have some examples and clues:

    And from when they fell from grace we know they enjoyed decadence and feasting:



    Which parts that remained present in the Exile culture is less easy to say, but we have some further examples from Gondor, when Faramir describes weaknesses that remained, and some historical, mystic and seemingly alchemistics interests held by the lords:

    The interests among the Dunedain had during the Age grown less soficsticated and more 'wordly', with warfare held high and martial skill a sport as well as the prime skill.
    That do not however mean that the ideal Dunedain have not skills and interests broader than so.

    The Dunedain still like songs, for toil, leisure or celebration alike:

    They can throw a party for victories, and the ruler have a hall ready for the fun activities:

    The Dúnedain also were perfectly familiar with wine and ale, so they would not been too boring to hang around when occasions offered themselves.


    The Black Númenóreans apperently had a preference for powerful knowledge:


    I have less to tell about the Arnorian Dúnedain, but apperently they in their never ending guerilla warfare against evil were not keen on making songs about it. However, they did sometimes fancy to have a drink at an inn and tell tales about their adventures and travels hehe:
    WOW! That was some thorough research you conducted there, Ngugi. You have definitely earned your +1 rep.

    I'm intrigued by all of this, especially the bit about boat racing, by either rowing or sailing. This is a sport that apparently has existed for a very long time historically speaking, going back to ancient Egypt. I'm not quite sure how prevalent it was in ancient Greece and Rome, or medieval Europe for that matter. Venice seems to have had boat races as early as the 13th century, yet it doesn't seem to have become a fashionable sport in places like the British Isles until the 17th century. As for Arabia, Persia, and India, I'm not quite sure about those civilizations either, although I'm well aware that the ancient and Imperial-era Chinese (and by extension their little Confucian brothers in the dynastic kingdoms of Korea) practiced boat racing as a spectator sport (for instance, the Dragon Boat race that existed since the Song Dynasty). I know the Mayans and Aztecs used watercrafts frequently, such as in the city of Tenochtitlan, but I don't think they had an established sport for rowing (at least nothing like their bloodsports and ball games).

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    You're welcome

    On the general matter (not directed to you Roma') I'm not a fan of speculations about what inspired, because most such discussions tends to be peoples trying to argue for allegory ("Middle-earth's X resemble Y from the real world, so X must be Y with another name"), something that Tolkien despised and which tells me a lot about the person who makes the proposal but not about Tolkien, hehe.
    Indeed, even when we know of a definitive inspiration, we must be careful to belive we understand the final result in JRR's writings, or to what degree it inspired. An abvious inspiration, as any writer will confirm, is supported by lots of other inspirations, big and small, who merge together and form something new - unless representation through allegory was the intent. But again, Tolkien had no such intent.
    His letters for example are filled with compairisons to real world models, but it is actually an easy trap to believe that his ME creation must represent these models because they are mentioned, when they possibly, and I argue very often, are merely rethorical tools to help strangers to understand and get a sense of persons, cultures and events Tolkien tried to describe in short letters, when the respondents had not read anything more than Hobbit and/or LotR during his lifetime. Parables are efficient! They invoke images that help understanding through compairison - but if we are unaware of the potential use of parables, we risk to miscolour our own understanding.
    Tolkien used reality to create fantasy, that is key; I deem Edward Vajda describes it very well in a lecture - if people are not interested in all, I for this topic recommend to see 8:35 to 21:50 https://youtu.be/5NKlr0vRX34?t=515


    Now, this rant apart, on Númenórean maritime leisure activity uncounted things may go in. Personally I do not think any specific real historical culture is model for this, more than that any seabound culture or any folk living by the sea he met in his life may provided ideas, but if I would be asked about potential inspirations, it would be these three factors;
    - It was an island. From that sea-bound activities are rational by the nature of the place.
    - Atlantis. That legend is a case of very well-established inspiration to Tolkien, but we talk about the vision of Atlantis as seabound high culture invoked, and not facts*. JRRs description fits the idyllic idea of a fantastic isle with a happy people living and entertaining themselves there upon.
    - 'Inherent logic'. This many miss, but the world created enforce rules, demands and suggestions. Tolkien often conclude that because he written X or Y earlier new ideas must be rejected, or because of X or Y also Z must exist or occured. The Númenóreans being God-blessed, Elf-educated mariners sailing to Middle-earth and interfering with the affairs there is a key element in his mythology. Therefore, when pondering the leisure activities of a people who were "mariners whose like shall never be again", what he tell us is merely rational conclusions [who, in turn, may been encouraged by a vast amount of other sources, but who may not be seriously speculated upon].


    * From Letter 227:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Númenor, shortened form of Númenórë, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōrë 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend, but not based on special knowledge, but on a special personal concern with this tradition of the culture-bearing men of the Sea, which so profoundly affected the imagination of peoples of Europe with westward-shores.

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  16. #3256
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    On the general matter (not directed to you Roma') I'm not a fan of speculations about what inspired, because most such discussions tends to be peoples trying to argue for allegory ("Middle-earth's X resemble Y from the real world, so X must be Y with another name"), something that Tolkien despised and which tells me a lot about the person who makes the proposal but not about Tolkien, hehe.
    Agreed, I don't care much about where Tolkien got his ideas so much as how he used them. I'm chiefly interested in seemingly esoteric bits of his novels, the parts you have to piece together in order to form a more complete picture. The theme of recreation and sports is one that I never see in discussions about Tolkien's literature. To be honest I think it gives the Numenoreans/Dunedain a more tangible, personable, relatable, and believably human link to the reader. It reminds us that these are people who engage in everyday activities of leisure like everyone else, akin to real historical peoples.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Then you might like this litte episode; know I find it warm
    Aldarion, later king of Númenor, have come home after a many years voyage to Middle-earth. After a day ashore he travel by his mate Ulbar's home, since he had a falling out with his wife and left home:
    When he came near, he heard the sound of music, and he found the shepherds making merry for the homecoming of Ulbar, with many marvellous tales and many gifts; and the wife of Ulbar garlanded was dancing with him to the playing of pipes.

    At first none observed him, and he sat on his horse watching with a smile; but then suddenly Ulbar cried out "The Great Captain!" and Îbal his son ran forward to Aldarion's stirrup.
    "Lord Captain!" he said eagerly.
    "What is it? I am in haste," said Aldarion; for now his mood was changed, and he felt wrathful and bitter.
    "I would but ask," said the boy, "how old must a man be, before he may go over sea in a ship, like my father?"
    "As old as the hills, and with no other hope in life," said Aldarion. "Or whenever he has a mind! But your mother, Ulbar's son: will she not greet me?"

    When Ulbar's wife came forward Aldarion took her hand. "Will you receive this of me?" he said. "It is but little return for six years of good man's aid that you gave me." Then from a wallet under his tunic he took a jewel red like fire, upon a band of gold, and he pressed it into her hand. "From the King of the Elves it came," he said. "But he will think it well-bestowed, when I tell him." Then Aldarion bade farewell to the people there, and rode away, having no mind now to stay in that house
    Last edited by Ngugi; April 04, 2016 at 08:40 AM.

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  18. #3258
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Then you might like this litte episode; know I find it warm
    Aldarion, later king of Númenor, have come home after a many years voyage to Middle-earth. After a day ashore he travel by his mate Ulbar's home, since he had a falling out with his wife and left home:
    Cool. Thanks for sharing.

    Lol. As far as equivalents go in the real world, I always thought that the Song-dynasty Chinese "Iron Pagoda" of Kaifeng, China, built by the year 1049 (of ornately decorated glazed bricks, not actual iron) kinda looked like the tower of Orthanc at Isengard.



    Of course, I'm not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that Tolkien himself drew any sort of inspiration from this particular building. I doubt he knew much about Chinese architecture at all, let alone obscure old Buddhist pagodas in China (which was then under the rule of Chairman Mao Zedong and largely shut off from the world). To be honest things like the Tower of Orthanc just seem like the inventions of Tolkien's unique and wild imagination.

  19. #3259
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Some here have seen my previous summary videos about the Second Age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxOH...VyFH2Tz1BEP1O1

    Made for the DCI:LA players in first hand, I there told the story up till the point of the final War of that Age itself, since that's where the game begin; but since I got some input and requests, I deemed it fitting to cover it all, and make a third video about the events during the War of the Last Alliance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFU_sbJK8EY

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Ngugi; April 21, 2016 at 06:07 AM.

    Kingdom of Lindon preview video out





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  20. #3260
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    awesome!

    pity so little people thinks so
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