Tolkien General Discussion II

[Thangaror]

I forgot to subscribe to the new thread!

I think most critically the fact Balin seems to never have run into it is important to note. The Colony is fine until Sauron takes a turn not the Balrog - its orcs from Dul Guldur that destroy the colony not the Balrog. I would argue its Gandalf that wakes the Balrog with his use of Power, not anything else - he was hiding and waiting and that's it - Gandalf looked like maybe Valar were finally cleaning house.

The Balrog's behaviour is utmost weird. But, who is the drummer?


Regarding the Seven Rings of the Dwarves: The Broadbeams and Firebeards had joined Durin's Folk in Khazad-dûm. So, who were the seven Dwarflords, the Rings were given to?

[Beorn]

IIRC the Drummer was a Troll

[Macilrille]

We do not know. I also wonder why you consider the Balrog's behavior weird?

[conon394]

We do not know. I also wonder why you consider the Balrog's behavior weird?

Perhaps because his comparatively passive...

So he escaped the final destruction of Morgoth and hid - fine, but than what? Nothing.

Sauron and some Dragons did the same but they roused themselves to at least have big ambitions or at least local fun. Sure on the one hiding and waiting for Morgoth is there MO but once roused the Balrog does more or less nothing.

On has to wonder can it perceive that the dissipation of Morgoth? Notice that the Valar did not have to come to battle to win or that they more or less washed their hands of ME afterward.

If yes to the First Two and or the Third why wait in vain?

If it wanted its secret kept it certainly behooved to actually flee to deeper and darker locations after running of Durins folk.
If comfortable in Moria why not take steps to make it his own realm and secure from interference by Noldor or Sauron or what not?
If it chased out Durin's folk why did not quickly lead the Attack on Balin? Or save Azog and crush Durin's house?
If it was at all in league with Sauron why not lead the orcs out of the Misty mountains and crush Eorl for example.

----

On Balance I think the only good answer is the Balrogs though they had been power Ainur and become more or less only reflections of Morgoths will - when he was defeated they retained self preservation but no goal other than to wait and hide until his return/freedom.

Moria predated the Balrog's flight so the works of Dwarves or later Orcs were immaterial to it. Having been disturbed it ran out the Dwarves but seemed indifferent to any activity above it in reality by Dwarves or Orcs or Sauron.

I think in reality it was only roused by the odd confluence of Gandalf weilding his power, and One of the Three, by the One Ring, by Two (current and former) holders of the One Ring and by two different Glow Tech (tm) Noldor swords (and another comparable sword reforged by the Noldor) in Moria all at the same time. That I think maybe looked like something that needed to be faced because maybe it was the Valar deciding to clean house or Sauron... But for that I think the Balrog really did not care.

I guess the think that is most odd is its lack of Ego - I mean Smaug had one.... One can just imagine his reaction to an offer of Sauron to grant or give him something .. more or less f-off I take what I want and I need to lick nobodies fingers.

[athanaric]

AFAIK the Balrog was afraid to venture out into the open, lest he attract the ire of Manwe (who might've been alerted via the eagles) or some other higher-ups. I remember to have read something to that effect somewhere.

[muller227]

@Conon

I have always thought the Balrogs fundamentally different than Sauron. I always sort of had this odd vision of Morgoth sort of powering them up, granting to them a portion of his power. Hence their duel natures of darkness and flame. I can quite imagine old Sauron in Utumno seeing what had happened too his old roomie Gothmog being called for his turn at personal improvement. "Ummm No master I am fine just want too serve you don't have give me anything, I mean really I am just not worthy", then thinking too himself afterwards "phewww that was close."

I think this made Balrogs subservient too Morgoth, similar in some respects to the way the Nine are subservient to Sauron. We can always debate the exact nature of that relationship of Master too slave and it what it means in the definition of evil.

In fact I do not recall Balrogs ever ruling anything, in the slightest, except for orc armies.

Besides give the guy a break, it had been just ages since he had stomped himself a real Elvish Prince, granted the ones before did not drop their weapons and cry like a baby but an Elvish Prince nonetheless.

As far as dragons go that is more complicated, Sauron never really changes in nature, nor does he seem too accept (gifts of power from Morgoth) he maintains his self will. Which seems to include a penchant for being absent when things got real tough for the boss. Dragons now, they seem every bit as self-willed as Sauron. I can only explain them in the following manner. The dragon shape is natural too middle-earth, perhaps they started as a winged lizard, a snake a Komodo dragon who knows who cares. Morgoth only changed or bred up the original shape. The shape itself is only a house for the spirit within. I think the spirit of evil maia bound themselves to that natual shape, important thing about them is they can breed. This means that that shape is biologically functional, and inhabited by a spirit that has access too the Sacred Fire in the sense that Melian did.

[ztree]

Who's to say what kind of motivation and interests a Balrog has on his own?

For example, take Ungoliant: her sole interest is to devour and devour and devour... and then devour even more.
take the dragons: they want to horde gold and wealth....and that's it basically. No interest in a kingdom or army at their command.
take Bombadil: his interest is singing and rhymes and bringing flowers to a smoking hot lady, even though he probably has the power to rule kingdoms and break wills by the thousands.

So what does is cut for a Balrog?
It's very nature is of darkness and flames (and terror, I guess), so Moria seems like a cozy little place to settle down (that's also what the nameless things think, gnawing away at their snacks, a.k.a. the roots of the world)

[muller227]

Except Balrogs are defined as servants of Morgoth, they are an extension of his will, in ME it seems there is always a tether. Ungoliant was no servant of Morgoth, she was a self-willed ally, probably a maia of exceptional power who served no one but herself. Balrogs do Morgoth's bidding without question, charging the host of the Valar in the second war without thought and getting snuffed out like candles.

[Ngugi]

I stick to my version from A Goblin Tale;

Sauron: Oh, right... So you mean, that after having been the terror of the world and elite of Morgoths reign, you have been sitting inside a mountain for six thousand years?
Balrog: It's dangerous out there man! Valar and their snitch all over the place. I don't got myself a palantir either, you'll never know who else is listening. The Eruminati is real. No way man, I'm staying inside! And beside - it's a very comfy mountain.
Sauron: Oh. Yes. Well. Good to meet you again. Ehm, but if any of "valars snitch" drop by, I can trust you will stomp them out?
Balrog: If they breake in, sure. Unless it's Glorfindel, then I hide.
(...)

At that moment, as can only happend when most uncalled for, a large door slammed open and out came Bally the Balrog in fire and darkness. He waved his fist at all and everyone.
- Who was it! Someone dropped a big rock in my head! I will find that little brat and tear his limbs off!
- Oh no, wined Alpha Chief and after a hasty look at Flatface's grinning face he yelled: What do ye mean mister Balrog? Nobody been over in the west part of the Mines.
- It was someone I tell you, Bally roared pointing at a big bump on his forehead, and I want to pay it back.
- Can tell he have all in control... Flatface commented and added: What a royal fool.

In the sudden silence, when each and every Orc in desperation pointed finger at his neighboor and while the Balrog sized them with his stare, Little Warrior came running in:
- Alpha Chief, there's a bunch of intruders in the tomb-room! Four walking snacks, an Elf, two Men and and grey oldster with a fancy cane. Perhaps they did it?
- Must be such Valar snitches, Bally roared, let's get them... Ehm, the Elf, he didn't look, you know, Glorfindelish?
- Like all old-time-fancy? Little warrior asked. No, more wood-bum like those tree huggers in Mirkwood.
- Then we go get 'em! Bally ordered and all warriors cheered (...)

Suddenly Frodo saw before him a black chasm. At the end of the hall, the floor vanished and fell to an unknown depth. The outer door could only be reached by a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet. They could only pass across it single file. At the brink the old grey man halted, and the others came up in a pack behind:
- Elbereth's tits! Out of the ashes, into the fire!
From every hole came charging angry Goblins, and behind them came angry cave trolls and behind the trolls came the terror that scared the crap out of them before. Like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater, with a bump on the forehead; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
- Durin's Bane, the Dwarf bellowed, the drummer of doom! What shall we do Gandalf?
- A Balrog, muttered Gandalf. Now I understand.
- Get the snitches! Bally the Balrog cried out and moved through the forces of evil like a plow.
(...)

/http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=526532

[ztree]

True, but so were dragons (defined as servants of Melkor).
And after Morgoth's fall, they proved to be self willed as well.

[muller227]

@ Ngugi As good as explanation as any to be sure!!!!

@ztree

The important point about dragons in my explanation is that the original spirit maintains itself free of Morgoth and is unaltered by him, they only bind themeselves to a shape. Balrogs I think accept a portion of Morgoths essence into their very spirit and are bound too him. They do not seem too possess the same kind of self will that Sauron and Dragons do. In reality I am only guessing.

Ngugi I have the shovels, hows the pentagram coming? I have a feeling airfare gonna be a to gather everyone for the ceremony. Swimming the pond ain't exactly my thing you know!!!

[ztree]

What is clear, is that a change occurred in the Balrog(s) after Morgoth got smacked up.
Strangely enough, that change is not so obvious with the dragons, even though they are even designed by him. Balrogs at least, were created before Arda and were only following him. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that they have their own will after Morgoth, since they had it before him.

[Ngugi]

What is clear, is that a change occurred in the Balrog(s) after Morgoth got smacked up.
Strangely enough, that change is not so obvious with the dragons, even though they are even designed by him. Balrogs at least, were created before Arda and were only following him. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that they have their own will after Morgoth, since they had it before him.

The Dragons were also Maiar, I just add. First two quotes concerning taking bodies and then Tolkien's comment on dragons (copied from a post in the former thread);

Therefore and army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
(...)

Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst.
- Silmarillion; Of Beren and Luthien

In the passage in NE (p. 118) describing the eyes of Glaurung when Nienor came face to face with him on the hill-top, the words 'they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master' contain an editorial alteration: the manuscript reads 'the fell spirit of Morgoth, who made him' (cf. IV. 128). My father underlined the last three words in pencil, and faintly and barely legibly at the foot of the page he noted: 'Glaurung must be a demon [??contained in worm form].' On the emergence at this time of the virew that Melkor could make nothing that had life of its own see X. 74, 78.
- HoME 11; The Grey Annals; Commentary §307

[muller227]

What is clear, is that a change occurred in the Balrog(s) after Morgoth got smacked up.
Strangely enough, that change is not so obvious with the dragons, even though they are even designed by him. Balrogs at least, were created before Arda and were only following him. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that they have their own will after Morgoth, since they had it before him.

Dragons are a very late creation of Morgoth, he no longer had the spirtual power too give up so too speak, being so diminished already. I think he had to rely on sort of scientific alterations of natural processes to create the shape of Dragons, shapes that unaltered spirits of evil (evil of their own accord) agreed to inhabit.

The Nazgul I think explain Balrogs. The Nazgul have no will of their own they are bound too the Ring through the original gift of their own rings. Balrogs are bound too Morgoth through acceptance of spiritual power from Morgoth, early on when he had it too give they are altered spirits, their self-will is thereby compromised. All evil serves Morgoth weather by free will (like Sauron) or enslavement (like orcs). Self willed evil can exist move forward without a master, spiritually enslaved evil is helpless without the master though more powerful because of the master. The spiritual power of Sauron is weakened beyond repair at the destruction of the ring, it is at that point the Nazgul are snuffed out(original mortality unhinges them). Now Balrogs are of a much, much higher nature they don't simply snuff out, they are however directionless having given up their self-will.

[ztree]

Thanks for the quote and input guys.
So the curious case of the dragons is that their bodies were designed by Morgoth, but their spirits and minds came from somewhere else (Maia). Logical, since he can not create spirits by his own.

But what then with the "extension of his will" part. Since their very being is not created by him, they sure have their own will, at least after he perished. Both Balrogs and dragons alike.

[muller227]

Morgoths spirit that is loose in ME does not die it is sourced in the greatest of all spirits other than Eru. Once bound to Morgoth in anyway you are screwed because the greatest portion of his will is bound inside the fabric of the world itself. The Valar could kill Morgoth in the end, but in so doing they would also destroy the children of Eru. (Elves, Men, and by adoption Dwarves) who inhabit Arda those born and unborn, they do not have that authority, nor that desire. The Music must run its course.

The alteration of spirit binds Balrogs to Morgoth in a way that Sauron, Dragons, orcs and other evil creatures are not.

[Ngugi]

To argue for that point we do have this;

And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.
- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

However I generally is screptical to weither may find an 'in-world' reason and not a direct editorial choice, to have a "terror at the roots of the world" such speaking, inspired by real mythologies.

Edit: however I want to recall that the reason behind the Balrog's position, and the only intent ever given at any time I presume, is that he came to the mountain to hide.
Whcih, fair enough, he did - and when discovered he killed all who awoke him. Or, if of wrong alignment and, if him aware of them, killed.

[muller227]

To argue for that point we do have this;
However I generally is screptical to weither may find an 'in-world' reason and not a direct editorial choice, to have a "terror at the roots of the world" such speaking, inspired by real mythologies.

Edit: however I want to recall that the reason behind the Balrog's position, and the only intent ever given at any time I presume, is that he came to the mountain to hide.
Whcih, fair enough, he did - and when discovered he killed all who awoke him. Or, if of wrong alignment and, if him aware of them, killed.

You just invoked letter 163 on me. That is kind of mean, I was on a metaphysical roll. Dammit!!!.

For those unfamiliar: Auden's letter at a point basically says he was working in as much of his older mythologies as possible. The Black Pit of Moria is pretty good First Age stuff. Ngugi is likely right, damn him. The Balrog is well just the Balrog.

[ztree]

Edit: however I want to recall that the reason behind the Balrog's position, and the only intent ever given at any time I presume, is that he came to the mountain to hide.

Can you direct me to a quote on this? Or may I shamelessly ask you to post a quote where it says that the reason he is there is to hide

[Ngugi]

I should start to take a toll for this Perhaps give out a book; "Ngugi and Tolkien: Lore Wrestling 2013" haha

Now, it may be more figuratively read but I take it more on the words here:

They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglir (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf.
- Letter 144

The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril.... Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.
- Appendix A

@ muller'
Not sure I argue against or for anything right now, not at all sure on my standpoint hehe