Tolkien General Discussion II

[Infidel144]

Laws and Customs has it as 50 years, with 100 for full growth for some. However, later texts have it that Elf children grow at much the same rate as the children of Men.

[Drorin]

Hi, I lately read this thread and I have two issues to argue haha

First, I recently read that could be Ambarto (Amrod or Amras, I read the text kept entirely clear) died in Losgar and Maedhros had no part in the third Kinslaying. This differs greatly from the version of The Silmarillion. What would be the more correct to you?

And second, it is an issue that I have touched on some other thread, but I think this is the right for more people to me your opinion on this site. It is the question of the fate of Nogrod and Belegost.
In my opinion, settlements survived the War of Wrath. I draw on the Mount Dolmed was well north of the Brilthor and Duilwen rivers that fall short Lhûn Gulf, where Ered Luin collapsed. Anyway, I think there probably collapses some halls, enough damage to many Firebeards and Broadbeams migrate to Khazad-dum, as is said in Appendix B, but in my opinion not all of them:

c. 40 Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.

Another argument is that the dwarves are very reluctant to leave their homes and if they lose they want them back, see Erebor and Moria. I also think that if the kings of both Houses survived stayed there, like Thorin and Thráin chose not to go to the Iron Hills after the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Arguments against are not reappointed the name of any of the two cities, except the above quote that the names "old cities in Ered Luin."
Another argument against is that if Thráin and Thorin not accepted host Dáin, why would the Dwarves of Ered Luin if their cities were still there?
In my opinion and in that time there were no dwarves in them and Thráin occupied the empty halls or conversely, if there were dwarves, they opened new mines elsewhere in them.


What to say about this?

PD: I hope you understand my bad english haha

[Ngugi]

Since I despise Fëanor I perhaps should embrace the story of how he killed his son Amras, apperently maddened and honestly scary, but no, since that idea contradicts to much of the [more significant] stories and chronologies we have, and JRR is not arround to rewrite the other texts or confirm the idea of the manslaughter, I count it only as an interesting optional scenario and a "what if"-matter.

That Maedhros would not participated in the last Kinslaying I can't recall I ever heard before, what's the source for that?
Would at any rate need to be very very compelling arguments and concepts from Tolkiens side to give such an optional story line precedence over all the other accounts; Maedhros is one of the best Noldor in my eyes, and his fall of grace I find the individually most sad tragedy among Elves in all the Doom of Noldor (bloody Fëanor and his oath) and thus weird to soften it out. It would be like let Turin find out Nienor is not his sister and they lived happily ever after
On the other hand Tolkien went Mary Sue with Galadriel in late years; gladly it was never properly introduced as it belitted her act to not take the Ring.


To Tolkien it was clear that Nogrod and Belegost had become ruins, and not ever once after the First Age they are mentioned as a place where Dwarves lived:

After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim.
- Appendix A

It was after the end of the First Age that the great power and wealth of Moria began, for it was enriched by many folk and much lore and craft, when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost were ruined in the change of the western world and the breaking of Morgoth.
- HoME 12; draft for Appendix A

You are free to want them to remain as accessable ruins, and even as a places where Dwarves remain or places Dwarves resettled, that is no issue (for a mod or fan fiction or even you choice how to view Middle-earth); but there is nothing Tolkien ever wrote to support it, just to be clear.

[Drorin]

I read again about Maedhros and has been a misreading of me. haha

First read:
512 FA: Maedhros learns that the Silmaril is at the Mouths of Sirion, but he does not immediately act - and forswears the Oath - out of guilt for their actions in Doriath.
538 FA: The Third Kinslaying: the remaining sons of Fëanor, desiring the Silmaril, attack the remnants of Doriath and Gondolin at the New Havens.

Second read:
512 FA: Maedhros learns that the Silmaril is at the Mouths of Sirion, but he does not immediately act - and forswears the Oath - out of guilt for their actions in Doriath.
527 FA: The remaining Sons of Fëanor - Maedhros, Maglor and Amras - begin to feel tormented by their unfulfilled oath.
538 FA: The Third Kinslaying: the remaining sons of Fëanor, desiring the Silmaril, attack the remnants of Doriath and Gondolin at the New Havens.

Chronology Tolkien Gateway.

Moreover, the death of Ambarto, personally I think a good alternative history, because in The Silmarillion no distinction between the two brothers, I mean that adds nothing to the story that they are one or two. A pity that it does not rewrite.

About Nogrod and Belegost I guess I don't understand ruined as destroyed or I don't want understand it thereby haha

[Thangaror]

should we consider "Middle" only from the geographical point of view? I mean, couldn't be a metaphysical definition too?

There certainly is, or maybe was in earlier concepts, certainly a metaphysical aspect to 'middle'.

Remember:

"Eálá Earendel engla beorhtast
Ofer middangeard monnum sended."

Since I despise Fëanor I perhaps should embrace the story of how he killed his son Amras, apperently maddened and honestly scary, but no, since that idea contradicts to much of the [more significant] stories and chronologies we have, and JRR is not arround to rewrite the other texts or confirm the idea of the manslaughter, I count it only as an interesting optional scenario and a "what if"-matter.

Duh, I sympathize with Fëanor. In many points I can understand why he became the way he was. The only thing that doesn't fit into the picture, is the dislike, and later even scorn for his half-brothers, since he always remained Daddy's darling.

The death of Amras really doesn't matter. Neither he, nor his brother are of any relevance. Letting one of them die at least give them some right to exist in the story. From a dramatic point of view though, it still doesn't make that much sense Amras getting killed at Losgar, because he slept in one of the ships. I think his death should be moved to an even earlier point in time (accidentally slain at Alqualonde, or going over board on the way north), as this would help to explain Feanor's madness and leaving Fingolfin's host in Araman.

To Tolkien it was clear that Nogrod and Belegost had become ruins, and not ever once after the First Age they are mentioned as a place where Dwarves lived:
You are free to want them to remain as accessable ruins, and even as a places where Dwarves remain or places Dwarves resettled, that is no issue (for a mod or fan fiction or even you choice how to view Middle-earth); but there is nothing Tolkien ever wrote to support it, just to be clear.

It's a bit difficult to exactly locate Nogrod and Belegost and the Dolmed, though many have already done this. But it's pretty certain that neither Nogrod nor Belegost drowned in the sea, when the Gulf of Lhûn broke through the Ered Luin. Sources on this time are scarce, but I don't think it was a violent drowning with earthquakes and vulcanoes and tsunamis like during the drowning of Númenor. Events like this would have left it's traces, both the stories and geology, but everything east of the Ered Luin remained pretty much untouched by the turmoil. Also, the remaining inhabitants of Beleriand took there time to leave their homes. I think we're talking of decades here.

However, as a consequence of the massive alteration, that happened to the continents many of the Dwarven halls probably collapsed. Dwarves were still living in the Ered Luin in the Third Age (or Second Age), possibly in still inhabitable parts of the old Kingdoms. I'm not sure whether there are sources for this, but I'm pretty sure Durin's folk didn't make the decision to settle there only after Smaug had sacked Erebor (or the Balrog drove them from Khazad-dûm). Thorin and his kin migrated west for a reason, most likely because there still were settlements in the Ered Luin.

[JJJaikishan]

Hey guys!..Flinn's reply in the 'Quiz' thread got me thinking....
Should Maedhros and Feanor also be counted amongst the High-King of the Noldor?...
I mean, as Flinn reminded me, Feanor was the 'High-King', albiet for a short time; but should Maedhros also be counted amongst the High-Kings, because you need to be a 'High-King', to give it up.
Agreed Feanor torpedoed his chances of being a popular High-King, when he burnt the ships, but why not Maedhros...

[Mhaedros]

I think Feanor counts, but not Maedhros. The way I remember it Maedhros was offered the crown, but declined it, that doesn't make him high king. Feanor on the other hand is undesputably the second high king of the Noldor, despite his actions.

[Flinn]

indeed, I would not include Maedhros at all in the list of the High-Kings. He was, of course, leader of his own people (just like almost any other Noldorin prince like Finrod, Orodreth, Turgon, etc.. they called themselves kings but they were subject to the High-King at any rate).

[Mhaedros]

I'm not sure I agree the noldorin princes were subject to the High King, with the exception maybe of the sons of Fingolfin and Finarfin. The Feanorian princes certainly didn't do as the High King wished, I would say they were renegades rather than part of the Noldor hierarchy.

[Boogie Knight]

It's been a few years since I read the Silmarillion, and having just finished the appendix to Return of the King, I've been trying to get my head around the different elven peoples. So there's the Noldor, Eldar, Sindar, Silvans... any others? I remember that "dark elf" in the forest who kept his wife and child prisoner with him (though I forget their names) - were they a separate kind? Was there anything that distinguished them from each other (I remember reading the Silvans were a bit more rustic -do we know why?) and was this intentional on Eru's part? Are there any Noldor left in Middle-Earth in the Third Age? And when it talks about the Eldar being exiles, I've completely forgotten why - are they anything to do with the Noldor?

Sorry for the long, rambling set of questions. I struggled a bit when reading the Silmarillion (I was 15/16 years old when I read it IIRC) and I'll give it another go at some point, but I've just started Tolkien's translation of Beowulf this morning and it's sitting pretty far down my reading list.

[Ngugi]

@ Flinn & Mhaedros
Neither Finwë or Fëanor were High Kings, AFAIK it was first used for Fingolfin, as that title did not exist prior to the fragmentation of the Noldor in Middle-earth (but it was used for Manwë as ruler of Arda, and Ingwë as High king of all Elves; as well as Thingol over the Teleri in Beleriand).

During Finwë's or Fëanor's reign all the Noldor had but a King of the Noldor; first when their people were split into different realms with own rulers, there was a need for a High King, a.k.a king over kings and automnous lords* [the title appear more a formal and honourary than an executive position].

*Hitlum-Dor-lomin, Nevrast/Gondolin, Nargothrond-Dorthonion and the realms of the Sons of Fëanor

[Flinn]

[the title appear more a formal and honourary than an executive position].

this, definitely

[Ngugi]

It's been a few years since I read the Silmarillion, and having just finished the appendix to Return of the King, I've been trying to get my head around the different elven peoples. So there's the Noldor, Eldar, Sindar, Silvans... any others? I remember that "dark elf" in the forest who kept his wife and child prisoner with him (though I forget their names) - were they a separate kind? Was there anything that distinguished them from each other (I remember reading the Silvans were a bit more rustic -do we know why?) and was this intentional on Eru's part? Are there any Noldor left in Middle-Earth in the Third Age? And when it talks about the Eldar being exiles, I've completely forgotten why - are they anything to do with the Noldor?

In short; the Quendi, or the Elves, are divided in many ways.
Main division is in Eldar and Avari.
Avari, the Unwilling, are the ones who did not wanted to travel to Aman in the beginning of their history, but prefered to stay in Middle-earth. Eldar, who were in majority, are those who went on the journey west with the Valar (whether they reached all the way or not).

The Elves were already split into three groups when the Valar found them. Of these groups all in the first became Eldar (the Vanyar), half of the second became Eldar (those who went west are known as the Noldor) and two thirds of the last and most numerous group (those who went became known as the Teleri).

Along the road parts of the Teleri host stopped at Anduin, and became the Nandor.

When the rest got to Beleriand the Vanyar and Noldor crossed the sea and went to Aman; they became Calaquendi (Light Elves, or High Elves) because they saw the light in Aman, and gained great advantages.
All Elves who never came to Aman and seen its light are Moriquendi (Dark Elves), that's not a disparaging term however, simply descriptive that they never been to Aman.

In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race.
Only to the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm.
- Silmarillion

The Teleri got divided in Beleriand: some went to Aman and became the Falmari and are Calaquendi too, others stayed in Middle-earth to be with Thingol, their king. Thingol had been in Aman already, and married a maia named Melian in Beleriand, therefor the Teleri in Beleriand got some of the enlightment and wisdom given to the Elves in Aman by their rulers, making them Sindar (Grey Elves, or Twilight Elves).
The Eldar who are Moriquendi are called Umanyar ("Elves not of Aman"); to separate them from the Avari, at need.

Back at Anduin some Nandor settled Eriador and later came to Beleriand, while those who stayed along the Great River mingled with Avari and became the Silvan Elves. They are rustic, because they never got much teaching or lore from Aman.

Eöl the Dark Elf's name is a bit obscure. He was a Moriquendi for sure, though if a Teleri or Avari of Noldor kinship differ between versions. Still at any rate it's clear he prefered the dark, had a dark countenance, was clad in black armour, wore a black sword and had a dark heart, so there are many reasons to name him the Dark Elf

When the Noldor returned to Middle-earth they did so under the ban of the Valar, not allowed to retrun, and thus were called the Exiles [from Aman]. That title was maintained by the Noldor all the way into the end of the Third Age, and is used by the Noldor Gildor in Fellowship of the Ring:

‘Who are you, and who is your lord?’ asked Frodo. ‘I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell. Come now, Frodo, tell us what you are doing? For we see that there is some shadow of fear upon you.’

Also Galadriel is Noldor.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Macilrille]

One Noldo, more Noldor ;-)

Anyhow, you could argue on very sketchy material from BoLT 1 p 239 that there is also the "Kaukareldar", fashioned or twisted by Morgoth to go amongst elves and men and spread dissent.

“...and he fashioned the false-fairies or KaukarEldar in their likeness, and these deceived and betrayed men.”

[Ngugi]

Not even in a context where we expect Morgoth to be able to create life on his own would they be accounted as real Quendi; and since we do not they're out hehe. They were obviously replaced by enthralled Elves instead and Maiar in human form in the later texts.

[Veteraan]

For those who can understand German (or French) the series of 5 episodes called "Auf den Spuren der Hobbits" that was aired by the Arte channel recently, might be interesting.
I believe all 5 can be found on Youtube and the first one I linked to in this post.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Boogie Knight]

Sorry for the late reply - thanks for posting all that info. I think it's gonna take a lot more brain power to get my head around than I have to spare right now. Maybe I'll try to come up with a little song to help me remember it all.

[Ngugi]

You're welcome.
It's a big topic, hehe.

Seems my linked image been resized. This can be handy instead (while it contain some names more than i bothered to mention): http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2..._the_Elves.jpg

[Thangaror]

It got shrank again. -.-

[Ngugi]

The net is a strange place
Well, it's just to make a google search, say for Quendi eldar avari and such charts are found