Tolkien General Discussion II

[muller227]

The rings represent gods and cycles of elements in nature (hermetizm). 3 7 and nine rings are pagan gods but the one ring is the god that every religon and men talking about. Visibility cause of ring relates that if you apart yourself from world and blames god for everything happens in universe means you are thinking your conscious is not related universe and you became invisible to "other" people. Sauron could not direct his armies without ring because in every religion wars made for gods in other way.

No I don't think so, first off it is unnecessary as all things you mentioned are well represented by Eru, the Valar and Morgoth. Second in his letters, he states it specifically represents the dangers of technology. Tools conceptually designed too make life better, that get turned too evil purpose. A theme a soldier of the trenches of WW I, would be well acquainted with.

The rings have a purpose, they are too make life in ME, like life in Valinor. So that diehard rebels like Galadriel do not need too swallow their pride and ask for pardon. So that they cna have their cake and eat it too. Like all Noldor creations in ME, they backfire with terrible consequences. You think they would just quit after awhile but nope they are Noldor.

Last Tolkien's personal religious convictions were public and well defined, you should check it out, it really helps in understanding ME.

[conon394]

Like all Noldor creations in ME, they backfire with terrible consequences. You think they would just quit after awhile but nope they are Noldor.

Unknown Ring Smith - "Hey, Celembrimor you really sure about this guy and the project, I mean sometimes when I working with him I just kind of get a bit of a cold shiver.., you know like Morgoth was walking on my grave"

Celebrimbor - "It OK man we are in charge, we are getting great synergies with Moria and add in the new Lore we are going beat my Grandad and make Valinor in ME"

URS " I know - its just like every time I finish a Ring I just have bad dreams for days all about death and destruction and you really don't want to know how you are doing in them, Elrond didn't like this guy right?"

C - "Oh he is a worry puss, just wait I have a really neat plan and just wait till Galadreil sees the one I made for her... In any case why not just check the big book of the Noldor if your worried"

URS - " Yes but the dreams get worse when I sleep by water and you know Ulmo never abandoned us"

C- " What? look at this ring, like I said check the Book"

URS - "OK, hmm, flip, flip... Wow look you are right its all there: Recklessly gain knowledge without firm understanding, Use said knowledge ignoring any wise advice to the contrary, All die brutal vile deaths..." well I guess that settles it we are screwed. Well at least I have a sense certainty now" Hmm where did we get this anyway Oh.. Mandos Press Inc.

C - "... Huh did you say something, just look, look at that ring She's going to love this better than anything that dull treehugger can make..."

[Alkarin]

I got a query for any Tolkien language enthusiasts that may be among you all. I've currently started learning to write in tengwar(sindarin) but I'm not sure if I'm starting words that begin with vowels correctly. Since I know you only write the tehtar above the consonant that is before the vowel. But since its in the beginning of the word do you simply use the "i" looking symbol with the appropriate tehtar above it? Or is there a unique character for vowels at the beginning of words? Thanks for any help in advance.

[Macilrille]

That particular field I have no knowledge whatsoever. Sorry.

[Beorn]

I got a query for any Tolkien language enthusiasts that may be among you all. I've currently started learning to write in tengwar(sindarin) but I'm not sure if I'm starting words that begin with vowels correctly. Since I know you only write the tehtar above the consonant that is before the vowel. But since its in the beginning of the word do you simply use the "i" looking symbol with the appropriate tehtar above it? Or is there a unique character for vowels at the beginning of words? Thanks for any help in advance.

Contact Aikanar
He's the closest to Quenya expert I've met around here, and he'll help you ; You omit the part where I'm mentioned if he asks you why you asked him

[Macilrille]

Ha ha ha...

[Aikanár]

I got a query for any Tolkien language enthusiasts that may be among you all. I've currently started learning to write in tengwar(sindarin) but I'm not sure if I'm starting words that begin with vowels correctly. Since I know you only write the tehtar above the consonant that is before the vowel. But since its in the beginning of the word do you simply use the "i" looking symbol with the appropriate tehtar above it? Or is there a unique character for vowels at the beginning of words? Thanks for any help in advance.

Alright, in Sindarin mode the tehtar is placed upon the consonant that follows the vowel. In Quenya mode the tehtar is placed upon the consonant that precedes the vowel. Hence what you describe is only a subject to Quenya, not Sindarin mode.

Whenever there is the situation that you can't use a consonant to place your tehtar above or underneath (more to that later) a short carrier is used (take a look at my avatar, the first letter is a short carrier and the second to last is a long carrier). There are two versions of carriers, the short and the long carrier. The long carrier is only and always used for long or double vowels (even if a consonant would exist to place that vowel on one uses a long carrier in this cases).

If you have two vowels following another you can still place them on one consonant or carrier (depending on the cricumstance). If you do so, you place the first vowel beneath the consonant or carrier and the following second vowel above it (again an example in my avatar).

If you have any further questions concerning Sindarin or Quenya, feel free to ask. And concerning what Beorn shamlessly advertised cheers mate, but I've to say that Arǭmēz has very good knowledge as well, maybe more than me.

[Sweden98AD]

Its not hard to see where from Tolkien got his inspiration to write his books :

The nine worlds of Yggdrasil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rDNHer3ZPw

[Ngugi]

Yeah, to a not to small degree, but then there is Havamal, celtish sagas, Dark age sagas like Beowulf, Greek and other mytology, general and specific history and lingustic knowledge - and, which is often forgotten when folk are hunting for Tolkien's inspiration; his own creative imagination hehe

[smoesville]

Yeah... his own crazy imagination hehe

There, i believe that's slightly more accurate

[Alkarin]

Alright, in Sindarin mode the tehtar is placed upon the consonant that follows the vowel. In Quenya mode the tehtar is placed upon the consonant that precedes the vowel. Hence what you describe is only a subject to Quenya, not Sindarin mode.

Whenever there is the situation that you can't use a consonant to place your tehtar above or underneath (more to that later) a short carrier is used (take a look at my avatar, the first letter is a short carrier and the second to last is a long carrier). There are two versions of carriers, the short and the long carrier. The long carrier is only and always used for long or double vowels (even if a consonant would exist to place that vowel on one uses a long carrier in this cases).

If you have two vowels following another you can still place them on one consonant or carrier (depending on the cricumstance). If you do so, you place the first vowel beneath the consonant or carrier and the following second vowel above it (again an example in my avatar).

If you have any further questions concerning Sindarin or Quenya, feel free to ask. And concerning what Beorn shamlessly advertised cheers mate, but I've to say that Arǭmēz has very good knowledge as well, maybe more than me.

Cheers mate. Yeah that clears it up for me. I was confused because some sources said the preceding consonant and others the following. And most sources have failed to say which mode they were using

And then I was looking at some writing and I got confused more. Since The Kings Letter (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/andriesc.jpg) had the tehtar about the second letter of the word (like how you say its supposed to be in sindarin) while others did not. Then I saw this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...o_Imladris.png
Where the A did not have a normal vowel carrier but then I realised its beleriand mode and I'm assuming that's unique to that mode (or atleast not in sindarin)

The only other question I've had so far was about the case of there being two vowels, but you cleared that up for me aswell. Thanks! Its much appreciated.

EDIT: So as an example, would this be the correct vowel placement for "Alkarin"?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Aikanár]

Well, yes and no. There is no hard "c" or "k" in Sindarin and Alkarin (Alcarin) is a Quenya (the Sindarin correspondent would be aglareb) name, but aside from that your example is correct for Sindarin mode "Alkharin".

[Mhaedros]

Anyone has any official sources of Dwarvish? I know there's a couple of words known, like khazad, dum, baruk etc, but I'd like to know if there are more

[Ngugi]

Best source on the very limited knowledge on khuzdul I know of is Ardalambion; see link there http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/index.html

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I would like to say something of the Orcs and their craftsmanship. There is the common misconception that Orc weapons are often badly made, inefficient and pretty much sharpened junk. While Orc weapons are not as good as Elven, Dwarven or Numenorean weapons, they should still be considered quite good.As per the Hobbit, Orc weapons are not badly made, just really,really ugly. While this is not a direct or word for word quote, it's the best I can manage as I have lent my copy of the Hobbit and it hasn't been returned yet.

They [Orcs] do not make beautiful things but they make very smart things. Many weapons and machines that kill and cause pain, preferably to many people at once are of their making, and I am sure that many of the cruel devices of these days have been thought by them.

[Trebudude]

Hey guys,

I am probably not the first to ask this question but I have just rekindled my love for Middle-Earth and have read through The Hobbit and The LoTR trilogy. So my question is what should I read next? I have heard that the Silmarillion is a good place to start for all the lore but I wanted to ask first before I bought it.

Thanks for any answer in advance!

[Curufin]

Next you could either read the Sil or the Unfinished tales, the Sil deals alot with the first age as well as bits and pieces on the 3rd age, whilst the UT is a bit of everything. Beyond that I guess you could go onto the histories of middle earth (HOME), but they're hard to find in shops really.

[Alkarin]

Well, yes and no. There is no hard "c" or "k" in Sindarin and Alkarin (Alcarin) is a Quenya (the Sindarin correspondent would be aglareb) name, but aside from that your example is correct for Sindarin mode "Alkharin".

Alright yeah I was just trying to clarify my comprehension of the mode rather than the language itself. Awesome stuff. I think I got it now.


Trebudude: I'd definitely say to read The Silmarillion next. Since it puts the history of the world into perspective and I'd think reading HOME or unfinished tales would be a bit confusing without the knowledge from it. But I can't say for sure since I haven't read HOME or UT. But The Silmarillion is always a safe bet.

[Beorn]

ΝΟΤ ΗοΜΕ. Ιt's a hard read, and probably the last book about Middle Earth in order of reading, as it's not a literature book but a collection of notes, chronologies and commentaries regarding the Middle Earth Legendarium. As mentioned above, try Sil, then UT. After those, if you feel still the urge for reading Tolkien go to Children of Hurin, and then HoME or the Letters.

[Macilrille]

LoTR > Hobbit > Silmarillion > Unfinished Tales > the HoMEs is the order I did it. I have not read the Children of Hurin yet as it is just regurgitated Sil + UT and I have not been able to get my hands on the Letters.