Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2921

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II


    Am I the only one who thinks that Christopher Tolkien's voice sounds exactly like Jeremy Iron's?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Wow, I just read a theory that Eöl originally planned to assassinate Fingon, and it is actually pretty convincing.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    You mean 'The Fëanoreans send their regards'?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    You mean 'The Fëanoreans send their regards'?
    I'm not sure what the House of Fëanor has to do with Eöl's proposed plans. Although that phrase is rather fun.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It's the name of a discourse, that discuss the idea of killing Fingon too: http://lintamande.tumblr.com/post/95...velin-problems
    However his few-lined thesis is completly unfounded, and thus pointless (the latter goes for most of the rambling anyhow), so would be interesting to read something that could be called convincing

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    It's the name of a discourse, that discuss the idea of killing Fingon too: http://lintamande.tumblr.com/post/95...velin-problems
    However his few-lined thesis is completly unfounded, and thus pointless (the latter goes for most of the rambling anyhow), so would be interesting to read something that could be called convincing
    Ah, that must have been my source. But I don't see what part is unfounded, exactly. It is speculation, sure but I don't think there is anything wrong with speculation. You might remember that I speculated on the motivations of Freca and Helm quite a bit some months back.
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; November 11, 2014 at 08:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    We're there any known interactions between Elrod and Thranduil or
    Thranduil and Celeborn?
    Last edited by Incredible Bulk; November 11, 2014 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ FC
    There's nothing wrong with speculation, that's required for lore studies more often than not, as well as it is a lot of fun, but a theory is not good simply because it exist.

    Where is Eöl supposed to got into a plan to assasinate the Noldor High king? Explain to me where such a thesis has any kind of foundation instead, because I fail to see it.
    The fact that he held a grudge against the Noldor is not a relevant argument. It could had been an argument, if Eöl had done or said anything that implied he in any way intended to strike at the Noldor instead of upholding his selfish 'right' to his son in case it was denied him, but there's nothing to build the thesis upon beside the grudge. And that is a gigant leap there.

    He would not reasonably got such a plan when he left Nan Elmoth, because then he assumed his family had fled to the Sons of Fëanor, where Fingon was not.
    Not when he departed from Curufin at Himlad either because he then did assume his family were going to Gondolin (and I trust Tolkien in this), and there exist no reason whatsoever to argue he expected to find Fingon in Turgon's hidden realm.
    Lastly not, again since Fingon was not in Gondolin, it would not been when he entered the way into the Encircling Mountains.

    To that follow, it must been either on the road to Gondolin from Himlad, or as he first road from Nan Elmoth, that he must made ready his javelin.
    Unless, naturally, he used to carry it, that we may not know, even if it is close at hand he poisoned it to get at the one he tried to use it against (and I fail to see why we should feel encouraged to assume he had any other target). Eöl is known to have additonal arms (Anguirel, though that ought to been stolen at this point) so it could just been a standard side arm of his.
    He would further not been the only one to use poisoned missiles against enemies in that Age. The Elves of Nargothrond used it as well, once they lost their former honour:
    So great a fear did [Curufin] set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.
    According to the logic that slaying Fingon would separate Maeglin from the Noldor, it would been a far more reasonable target to try to kill Turgon (and Eöl might been wicked and mad, but I do not think we shall lable him dumb) since it was to Gondolin Maeglin fled, and Turgon would be present in Gondolin. Such a murder could cause the Noldor of the intended refuge to reject Maeglin just as well, and much more likely - because Turgon in difference to Fingon was at reach to be killed. And even so Eöl did not pose a threat to Turgon, even if he defied Turgon's authority.

    With only a grudge to build such a thesis on, no texts to provide a foundation for arguments on it's behalf and all holes in the logic of Eöl's progress and actions if that would been his purpose, I maintain it's a meaningless theory - in difference to many other specualtions one may encounter, but non the less.
    Last edited by Ngugi; November 11, 2014 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    To that follow, it must been either on the road to Gondolin from Himlad, or as he first road from Nan Elmoth, that he must made ready his javelin.
    Unless, naturally, he used to carry it, that we may not know, even if it is close at hand he poisoned it to get at the one he tried to use it against (and I fail to see why we should feel encouraged to assume he had any other target). Eöl is known to have additional arms (Anguirel, though that ought to been stolen at this point) so it could just been a standard side arm of his.
    The writer's problem with the idea of a javelin being a standard side-arm of his is quite reasonable I think. A javelin is a rather strange choice of weapon to use while traveling. And we know that he thought he could convince Maeglin to turn back. So, who did he intend on using it on? His attempt to kill Maeglin seems like a spur of the moment decision, so he either wanted to use it on someone else, or carried it with him for..I don't really know.

    He would further not been the only one to use poisoned missiles against enemies in that Age. The Elves of Nargothrond used it as well, once they lost their former honour
    As an aside, don't you find the stance the text takes on their choice strange? I don't think it was such a bad idea to use guerrilla warfare, and it proved to be disastrous for Nargothrond when they chose to go to open war. And it is even stranger because Tolkien doesn't comment negatively on similar tactics when used by the Rangers of Ithilien or the Dúnedain of the North. (Or Barahir's men and the other similar groups)

    According to the logic that slaying Fingon would separate Maeglin from the Noldor, it would been a far more reasonable target to try to kill Turgon
    However Turgon was in reach at that moment, which makes Eol's choice stranger, and he had no existing grudge against him beyond that which he held to all Noldor. And still leaves the question of the bloody javelin hanging. Did he premeditate killing Maeglin and carried the javelin to do so? Did he possibly want to kill one of Sons of Fëanor? He met Curufin and didn't try anything. So, why did he carry it? Did he just have a habit of poisoning his weapons?
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Do not concur it is an issue. A distance weapon is not strange to carry as an additional arm, if other arms are already carried.
    That said, the word 'javelin' is not used in any HoME-text, there it is called a 'dart' (HoME 11).
    And when that was denied to him he sought to slay Glindur [not emended] with a poisoned dart, but Isfin sprang before her son, and was wounded, and died in that day.
    As far as I know to call it javelin is an editorial choice for the Silmarillion. Indeed in one of JRR's drafts it is said:
    Words to Turgon. Isfin acknowledges it. Turgon treats Eol with honour. Eol draws a bow and shoots at Morleg in the King's hall, saying that his own son shall not be filched. But Isfin sets herself in way and is wounded. While Eol is in prison Isfin dies of venom.

    Smart yes, but to use poison is something they should not do, as it is to the Elves wicked:
    It was appointed that Eol should be brought...: at the end of the paragraph my father added:For the Eldar never used any poison, not even against their most cruel enemies, beast, ork, or man; and they were filled with shame and horror that Eol should have meditated this evil deed.
    - HoME 11
    I deem poison simply is added to increase the point that Eöl was a malicious person, and to dwelve upon it further than so is to go meta all for nothing.


    I am still in question why should it on any grounds be questioned that Eöl indeed intended to use it against Maeglin, and that it was poisoned for the intent of killing Maeglin if he was denied, or intended not to subject himself to, Eöl?
    Of all potential targets Maeglin is the most likely. Are we to assume Eöl would had used it anyhow, had Maeglin obeyed his father and they been allowed to leave Gondolin? I find no reason to belive so, as that would for sure hindered his chances of bringing home Maeglin, his wicked and passioned goal, or brought vengeance upon his abode even even if he/they got away there.
    Last edited by Ngugi; November 11, 2014 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    That said, the word 'javelin' is not used in any HoME-text, there it is called a 'dart' (HoME 11).
    Which is more reasonable, given that Eöl had to carry and conceal it.

    Smart yes, but to use poison is something they should not do, as it is to the Elves wicked
    Meh, using poisoned weapons is a legitimate tactic, debatable morality aside.

    I deem poison simply is added to increase the point that Eöl was a malicious person, and to delve upon it further than so is to go meta all for nothing.
    And him killing Aredhel was to set up one of the reasons for Maeglin's bitterness, but that isn't nearly as fun to say.

    I am still in question why should it on any grounds be questioned that Eöl indeed intended to use it against Maeglin, and that it was poisoned for the intent of killing Maeglin if he was denied, or intended not to subject himself to, Eöl?
    Of all potential targets Maeglin is the most likely.
    Intending to kill his son seems a bit much, even for Eöl. (Then gain, Eöl is pretty much the most malevolent Elf Tolkien wrote about)

    Are we to assume Eöl would had used it anyhow, had Maeglin obeyed his father and they been allowed to leave Gondolin? I find no reason to belive so, as that would for sure hindered his chances of bringing home Maeglin, his wicked and passioned goal, or brought vengeance upon his abode even even if he/they got away there.
    I don't think I ever disagreed with that.
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; November 11, 2014 at 03:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    That said, the word 'javelin' is not used in any HoME-text, there it is called a 'dart' (HoME 11).
    And when that was denied to him he sought to slay Glindur [not emended] with a poisoned dart, but Isfin sprang before her son, and was wounded, and died in that day.
    As far as I know to call it javelin is an editorial choice for the Silmarillion. Indeed in one of JRR's drafts it is said:
    Words to Turgon. Isfin acknowledges it. Turgon treats Eol with honour. Eol draws a bow and shoots at Morleg in the King's hall, saying that his own son shall not be filched. But Isfin sets herself in way and is wounded. While Eol is in prison Isfin dies of venom.
    Even if it is not an editorial change, don't have the energy to sort the explanations out, it non the less simply seems JRR was in to provide Eöl a missile weapon of some kind, that would allow Eöl to, even if under guard, have a chance to poison the son who would certainly not embrace him but shun him. To grant him a javelin concealed is much more reasonable than a bow, and with same effect.


    EDIT: You got in between We concur on that yes

    I don't think I ever disagreed with that.
    Perhaps not, but without that, the theories discussed makes no sense, unless we assume Eöl was fine to be killed for a deed that would 'only' hopefully exile his son - or in any regard not grant him his son back to him?
    What he wanted was his son for his own, and as far as we know only the prospect of not Maeglin in his control made death an acceptable choice to him. To die himself (as punishment is quite to be expected) with his son still alive, with only the hope he get exiled from the Noldor, can hardly been seen as more appealing than to surrender control and leave him with his mother and Noldor, something he obviously rather died than accepted.
    I do indeed think Eöl was terrible enough to kill his son in cold blood. He do not seem as much crazy in his choice than he seem cold-hearted:
    Then Eöl looked into the eyes of King Turgon, and he was not daunted, but stood long without word or movement while a still silence fell upon the hall; and Aredhel was afraid, knowing that he was perilous. Suddenly, swift as serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying:
    'The second choice I take and for my son also! You shall not hold what is mine!'
    Last edited by Ngugi; November 11, 2014 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Even if it is not an editorial change, don't have the energy to sort the explanations out, it non the less simply seems JRR was in to provide Eöl a missile weapon of some kind, that would allow Eöl to, even if under guard, have a chance to poison the son who would certainly not embrace him but shun him. To grant him a javelin concealed is much more reasonable than a bow, and with same effect.
    A dart can refer to other missile weapons than an arrow.

    Like one of these
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; November 11, 2014 at 03:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    We're there any known interactions between Elrod and Thranduil or
    Thranduil and Celeborn?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    We're there any known interactions between Elrod and Thranduil or
    Thranduil and Celeborn?
    Certainly. Ones detailed by Tolkien? No. Although I guess it would have been hard for Elrod to have a conversation with anyone.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As FC say

    Two vague and one clear case of elationship for the latter two I know of;
    In the Second Age their king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien.
    - UT


    But his people were content with Amroth; he was valiant and wise, and his little kingdom was yet prosperous and beautiful. Therefore after long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years;
    - UT

    In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded,... but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen.
    - Appendix B
    (their relationship improved over time apperently ^^)


    Concerning Elrond and Thranduil, beside indirectly that both are fought in the Last Alliance and Legolas came to Rivendell, I know of no contact.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Concerning Elrond and Thranduil, beside indirectly that both are fought in the Last Alliance and Legolas came to Rivendell, I know of no contact.
    It is not unreasonable to think that they did. Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald, and Thranduil heir to Oropher. They would certainly have talked at some point, especially in various strategic meetings. And I imagine that before the White Council ousted Sauron from Dol-Guldur, they would have communicated with the King of Mirkwood.
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  18. #2938

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hello Guys,
    I know that this is not a Fanfiction site, but I just wanted to know your opinions about this theory, that has been repeating in my mind for a long time..
    Aragorn, is a direct descendent of Elros, who is the son of Earendil the mariner, and thereby he has the blood of the Noldor royalty in his veins.
    Also, after the battle of the Last Alliance, Elrond declined to be crowned as the High King of Noldor in Middle-Earth.
    So, is it possible that after Aragorn's coronation as the King of Gondor and Arnor, and the departure of Elrond and Galadriel, some of the elves from Imladris, instead of sailing over the seas, relocated to Minas Tirith, and accepted Aragorn as the High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth, part from his own heritage, and part because of his marriage to Arwen..
    This idea arose in my head because I just could not find what happened to Elrohir and Elladan, after their father went to Valinor{I assumed that they went along with Elrond, and this is the basis of my theory}

  19. #2939

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Elladan and Elrohir stayed, at least for a time.
    "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
    Letter 153

    In PoME, The Heirs of Elendil, it is said:
    "...the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the elf-realms of the westlands."

    It seems rather unlikely however that they were High Kings of the Noldor in exile. There were very few left and the exile had ended.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    There wasn't really a high enough number of Noldor left in Middle-earth to sustain a kingdom. So, by the Fourth Age, the dream was definitely over.
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