Tolkien General Discussion II

[Jon123]

"Power" is not only skill in combat. It is stated pretty clearly in the Silmarillion that Feanor is the most "powerful" of the Noldor but that Fingolfin was the most skilled in feats of arms.

In UT Galadriel is stated to have been (almost) the equal of Feanor, but this does not necessarily mean that she was a great warrior.

The power of the Elder faded the longer they were away from the undying lands. By the time of the Lord of the Rings, were it not for her ring, the power of Galadriel might have faded completely. Therefore do not expect her at this time to necessarily display "power" equal to that displayed by Feanor in the first age.

[Bercor]

In fact, most of the great fighters in Tolkien's stories die. Turgon, Fingolfin and Hurin? Dead. Turin? Incest and then Dead. Gil Galad? Dead. .

It's not fair to put Hurin and Turin in that list . Every man dies, sooner or later, being a warrior or not.

[The Despondent Mind]

I was never really paying much attention to the "eagles" plothole, but this seems like the most clear and coolest explanation for it.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Again with the bloody eagles? Really?

We have dismissed that claim.

[Macilrille]

It is not a plothole. It is some tween's bright idea...

[Ngugi]

I found Depsondent's provided theory funny ^^

[NejkoPejko]

''Fly'' you fools... xD

[DUX CRUATORVM COGIT]

''Fly'' you fools... xD

This eagles are annoying!
It's not fun anymore when they come to fight!

[Thangaror]

Adding to what Sint said, if I recall correctly, some passages of the Silmarillion presents a earlier concept of the Balrogs in which they were not Maiar. They were a race of themselves and there were hundreds of them, being much weaker than what Durin's Bane is (Feanor fought against several of them and still put up quite a fight).
Later, Tolkien changed his mind in regards to the Balrogs essence, turning them into Maiar. They were lesser in number but much more powerful.

Yes and no. Yes, because clearly the earliest concept of Balrogs makes them comparable to say LotR's Trolls. Even Tuor, a human slew dozens in Gondolin, but at this time Tolkien still imagined Men being taller and stronger than Elves, and Tuor being the tallest of all.

However, in the published Silmarillion the Balrogs are much more powerful than in the Lost Tales. It might be an intermediate stage of the development, as there are some phrases like "Balrogs were with them", which sounds like lots (say more than 20) of them. In the end, however, Tolkien stated there were not more than seven Balrogs.

Nevertheless, in the end I have to conclude that the Elves of the First Age were unimaginably powerful. Fingolfin fought a bloody giant, and no matter how fleet-footed he was, he was hit by that huge hammer and his shield was shattered. It's a miracle he didn't suffer any injuries, it's like an ordinary human getting hit by a truck at 50 km/h and surviving without any broken bones.

No, Feanor was excelent craftsman but not a great fighter, Galadriel was wise but not powerfull. That title would go to Fingolfin or Ecthelion.

Feanáro, that name means "Spirit of Fire". Ring a bell?
Also it's explicitely stated that the was the most powerful. He had 'absorbed' Míriel's force of life when he was born and thus he was unsurpassed in both, strenght of mind, of will, of body among the Eldar (not counting Lúthien). To me he appears like some kind of demi-god of rage.

I am sorry i cannot see how Galadriel is even considered to be most powerfull elf.

Because THE PROFESSOR himself said so.
Amen.

[Macilrille]

Word of God.

And regarding the Eagle thingie, it proves that PJ is right.

[Hresvelgr]

I was never really paying much attention to the "eagles" plothole, but this seems like the most clear and coolest explanation for it.

It's only really clear if you never read the books and barely paid any attention to the movies. The last part really gets me, Gandalf supposedly thinks the eagles are crucial to getting the Ring to Mt Doom but can't even just say that to them? Even when he's about to fall he has to be cryptic (and totally isn't using "fly" in a less literal, more archaic sense) and useless? The exact method of delivering the Ring wouldn't be any more secret than the plan to destroy the Ring in the first place, and if he couldn't tell someone the plan for getting it there in Rivendell of all places it's not much of a plan at all. There's literally nobody else in Middle-Earth more trustworthy than Elrond, but this guy's theory (of which you seem to have clipped only a portion of, you left out a lot of egregiously bad bits) relies on Elrond somehow not being worthy of knowing Gandalf's plans even though they're like best of buds and two of the three people doing the most to contribute to Sauron's downfall, with Elrond having the most experience and stake in this matter. Also, even the movies show that Gandalf was originally going to take the Fellowship through the Gap of Rohan, but changed his mind when he realized the pass was being watched. But really, the idea that he couldn't tell any of them is just mind-bogglingly bad.

[Veteraan]

This is what happens when [Lotr jokes and funny stuff] and TGD II get mixed.

[Jagmodo]

I wonder what exactly the Stone of Erech is. Was it magical in some way, possibly instrumental in the curse that Isildur laid on the Dead Men of Dunharrow?

We know that it was a very large, round black stone, half buried in the ground and was used as a meeting place where people of White Mountains swore their allegiance to sons of Elendil. Also, it is strongly implied it was brought by Isildur from Númenor, and from this stem my wonder.

For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor.

Faithfull fled from Númenor on nine ships, and even though Faithfull probably used palantíri to coordinate, it would not be an easy feat. At those times there was a pogrom against them, even Elendil narrowly escape being sacrificed. My guess is they could take only most dear/valuable of their possessions. If the stone was useless there would be no point of taking it with them; it would be much simpler to chisel such a landmark in Middle-earth, considering its dimensions and probably weight.

Also, to my knowledge, no mortal before Elendil cursed/ban fëa from going to Halls of Mandos.

I’m aware it’s more of a question based on speculations rather than facts, but I would like to know what people here think about it. Was it a simple landmark or something more?

[Ngugi]

Ah, to proper lore post, soothing to the soul

For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men, and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering.
- RotK; The Passing of the Grey Company

To begin with, there's a chance that the black stone actually come from the sky, even if brought by Isildur, pointing at the swords of Eöl:

Then Beleg chose Anglachel; and that was a sword of great worth, and it was so named because it was made of iron that fell from heaven as a blazing star; it would cleave all earth-delved iron. One other sword only in Middle-earth was like to it. That sword does not enter into this tale, though it was made of the same ore by the same smith; and that smith was Eöl the Dark Elf...
(...)
The sword Anglachel was forged anew for him by cunning smiths of Nargothrond, and though ever black its edges shone with pale fire;
- Published Silmarillion

But I do not belive that was the case, and not just because that in this singular case it's a matter of a metal that's black and not a matter of black stone.

The stone at Erech is not the only black stone in question, nor at a place that they swore by (an ancient tradition to swear by a rock I presume among pagans, and known from the Old Testament, that Tolkien took inspiration from for this pre-christian world).
I doubt the Númenóreans brought a collection of meteors, and it ought to been mentioned somewhere if there were many or a massive amount of unearthly rocks.

Then Cirion went up the stair with Eorl and the others followed; and when they came to the summit they saw there a wide oval place of level turf, unfenced, but at its eastern end there stood a low mound on which grew the white flowers of alfirin, and the westering sun touched them with gold. Then the Lord of Dol Amroth, chief of those in the company of Cirion, went towards the mound and saw, lying on the grass before it and yet unmarred by weed or weather, a black stone; and on the stone three letters were engraved. Then he said to Cirion: "Is this then a tomb? But what great man of old lies here?"
"Have you not read the letters?" said Cirion.
"I have," said the Prince, "and therefore I wonder; for the letters are lambe, amdo, lambe, but there is no tomb for Elendil, nor has any man since his day dared to use that name."
"Nonetheless this is his tomb," said Cirion; "and from it comes the awe that dwells on this hill and in the woods below. From Isildur who raised it to Meneldil who succeeded him, and so down all the line of the Kings and down the line of the Stewards even to myself, this tomb has been kept a secret by Isildur's command. For he said: 'Here is the mid-point of the Kingdom of the South, and here shall the memorial of Elendil the Faithful abide in the keeping of the Valar, while the Kingdom endures. This hill shall be a hallow, and let no man disturb its peace and silence, unless he be an heir of Elendil.' I have brought you here, so that the oaths here taken may seem of deepest solemnity to ourselves and to our heirs upon either side."
- UT; Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan; Cirion and Eorl

It is however reasonable that the stone at Erech was hallowed in some manner, to give it significance enough to be sworn by, and since Isildur bothered to bring it with him.

Erech, the place where Isildur set the covenant-stone.
- Letter 297

Black stone is like a Numenoreans in Exile trademark in any regard:

There stood a tower of marvellous shape. It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills. A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard:
- TTT; The Road to Isengard

For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.
- RotK; The Siege of Gondor

I do further belive that the Men of Dunharrow strictly speaking cursed themselves to be bound to Arda, that their self-appointed vow did it, and Isildur's curse just 'activated', confirmed or settled their vows 'catch':

This was a black stone, according to legend brought from Númenor, set up to mark the meeting place of Isildur and Anárion with the last king of the dark men of the Mountains, who swore allegiance to the sons of Elendil, vowing to aid them and their kin for ever, 'even though Death should take us.'
- HoME 8; The Last Debate

‘...' said Aragorn. ‘But the oath that they broke was to fight against Sauron, and they must fight therefore, if they are to fulfil it. For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor. But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfil their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.
‘Then Isildur said to their king: “Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end.”
- RotK; The Passing of the Grey Company

[Thangaror]

The Stone stood man-high from the ground, which means it must have been about 4 metres in diameter. That Isildur brought it from Númenor is not stated as fact and in my opinion only a myth. I guess that the stone had been there for a long long time, and had been a hallowed place for generations.

[Sint]

I was never really paying much attention to the "eagles" plothole, but this seems like the most clear and coolest explanation for it.

Apart from Fell Beasts killing the Eagles while the hobbits fall to death?And Sauron noticing that they fly into Mordor and sending a few thousand orcs and trolls to mount doom?

[RuleBritannia]

Apart from Fell Beasts killing the Eagles while the hobbits fall to death?And Sauron noticing that they fly into Mordor and sending a few thousand orcs and trolls to mount doom?

Yeah, I've always thought the Eagles argument was flimsy. The Eagles don't even go near Mordor until Sauron's army and Nazgul are distracted. Flying overhead when Mordor's fully alert and Sauron's watching the entirety of Middle-earth would be suicidal.

Though I do wonder why Sauron didn't get some Olog-hai or something to build a vent over Mount Doom to let the smoke out, yet keep small pieces of jewelry out. Guess it's the same reason the Empire didn't cover up the small ventilation shaft that happened to be a titanic weakness.

[Ngugi]

Sauron had no need to keep 'Ring destroyers' out. That someone who got it would like to destroy it, instead of keep it and use it for their own needs and at any rate avoid to fall for the massive influence of the One, was not a risk he considered. Quite right too, still while reason was on his side fate just was playing against him.

[Veteraan]

Sauron had no need to keep 'Ring destroyers' out. That someone who got it would like to destroy it, instead of keep it and use it for their own needs and at any rate avoid to fall for the massive influence of the One, was not a risk he considered. Quite right too, still while reason was on his side fate just was playing against him.

Exactly. And since it's not easy providing quotes when working with a phone, I will add this:

"He is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place.That we should wish to cast him down and have no one in his place is not a thought that occurs to his mind. That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream."
-The Two Towers, "The White Rider"

[insolent1]

Sauron had no need to keep 'Ring destroyers' out. That someone who got it would like to destroy it, instead of keep it and use it for their own needs and at any rate avoid to fall for the massive influence of the One, was not a risk he considered. Quite right too, still while reason was on his side fate just was playing against him.

Sauron knew about Golum(and captured him iirc) which means he(it) understood that there where creatures that didn't fully succumb to its power, but I suppose he(it) didn't expect them to actually have the willpower to destroy it(which they didn't but fate sorted that out).
Although I think Sam would have had the willpower to destroy it since he had only being affected by it for a short time.