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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #261
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Until I can find the quote stating that Sauron changed the 16 Rings before he handed them out to mortals I will resign from the debate, since my argumentation do not come together without it.
    You, unable to find an appropriate quote?! That's got to be a first
    Last edited by smoesville; January 11, 2013 at 07:11 AM.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  2. #262
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    You, unable to find an appropriate quote?! That's got to be a first
    I know it, I just can't find its location, so I take it only as half a defeat haha

    Quote Originally Posted by FC Groningen View Post
    Not sure on whether these conclusions are already made or not, but:
    - The reason Celebrimbor stopped trusting Sauron was because he heard Sauron utter the words that were written on the One Ring, so the effects of these rings weren't the reason.
    - Celebrimbor didn't possess these 16 rings at this time, else he would have hid these rings, along with the other 3.
    - So far, I haven't seen sources that indicated that the bearers of the 7 or 3 ever became invisible. We know the 3 don't cause it to the people that wore them and I assume that the Dwarves didn't either for already mentioned reasons. No report of Thror becoming invisible has been made (to my knowledge). My take is that the bearers of the 9 weren't so either, until they became wraiths under the One.
    - I believe Gandalf stated in FotR, that the bearer of a Great Ring receives power accordingly to his/her previous stature. The average are empowered, but slowly start to fade away and enter the realm of the wraiths, but the wise and powerful (some already live in both worlds) are empowered and corrupted. To me it seems that only after you're completely corrupted/faded, you disappear from the visible world, except for the One Ring.
    - Gandalf also stated that the Three do not tolerate evil and also that these ones are rings Sauron never touched. The other ones do corrupt the heart in a way, while the other 3 don't seem to do that. Seems a pretty clear indication to me that Sauron modified these great rings as I doubt the Elves of Eregion would have crafted such tools for corruption. Also note that these 16 rings continued to corrupt without anyone bearing the One Ring capable of dominating the others.
    - Agree
    - He did have them, all but the Three was taken from them in in the War of the Elves and Sauron after Sauron had revealed himself using the One
    - Tolkien said they did, see quote from letter 131 in earlier posts. Further Gandalf claim “if [a mortal] often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.” This is about the One, but as that is what happend to the Nine Men who became Wraiths we can concur the Nine had the same ability to make one invisible since that is what make mortals into Wraiths.
    - This I do not follow. I know it is said that depending on the wearers original capacity and mentality they could resist differently long but at end all fall.
    But I do not think anyone suggested any wearer would go trough a stage of semi-invisibility after a long time of use even without wearing his Ring?
    - Would like to see quote on that, can't recall such a claim; while I do is of the opinion Sauron modified them after taking them
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 11, 2013 at 07:23 AM.

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  3. #263
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    Hahaha. Why did you take that offensive? I just checked that will you discuss everything in Tolkien's world negative or positive. And I got my answers quickly more than I expected.
    I honestly don't understand what you're talking about.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  4. #264
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    I know it, I just can't find its location, so I take it only as half a defeat haha


    - Agree
    - He did have them, all but the Three was taken from them in in the War of the Elves and Sauron after Sauron had revealed himself using the One
    - Tolkien said they did, see quote from letter 131 in earlier posts. Further Gandalf claim “if [a mortal] often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.” This is about the One, but as that is what happend to the Nine Men who became Wraiths we can concur the Nine had the same ability to make one invisible since that is what make mortals into Wraiths.
    - This I do not follow. I know it is said that depending on the wearers original capacity and mentality they could resist differently long but at end all fall.
    But I do not think anyone suggested any wearer would go trough a stage of semi-invisibility after a long time of use even without wearing his Ring?
    - Would like to see quote on that, can't recall such a claim; while I do is of the opinion Sauron modified them after taking them
    -ok dropped
    - Didn't know that. Just figured Celebrimbor and "Annatar" simply agreed to keep these rings with the Elves. Why not cut out the middle man.
    - The way I read it, is that they became wraiths after their total corruption and not before by just wearing them. Open to interpretation if you ask me, unless you have another source.
    - I meant that the weaker "start to fade" right away and are introduced to the wraith realm in the case of the One. The wise/strong (and by strong, I define the people that came from Valinor and therefore were familiar with the wraith realm already like Glorfindel). I assume that Thror and the other dwarves wore their rings all the time but didn't become invisible. Just like Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel. In the movies at the very least, Isildur tried to use the Ring to get away but got killed. I believe Gandalf also mentioned that Isildur was betrayed by the One Ring by slipping off his finger and thus making him visible. My point is that probably only the One Ring could make people invisible before they were completely consumed by the Ring.
    - I have a dutch copy of FotR here with some prologue before the first book, including and starting with "concerning hobbits". I'll try to quote, but note that I'm translating it and can't give a real page number.

    "Because of him, the Enemy knows the One Ring has been found. He knows where Isildur died. He knows where Gollum found his ring. He knows it's a Great Ring, because it gave a long life. He knows it's not one of the Three, because those were never lost and tolerate no evil." - Gandalf - A shadow of the past

    Another reason I think Sauron never touched the Three, was because apparantly these rings didn't corrupt, or at least no notable effects of corruption could be found on Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel while they wore them all the time.



    edit: I also wondered something else. Would the other Great Rings (like the Nine) be able to enslave multiple people? It's generally assumed that Sauron kept the Nine and the remaining of the Seven with him. Would it be possible, after the complete corruption to hand these rings out to others? If that was the case, he could perhaps create an entire army of Nazgul.


    edit: I also remember Elrond mentioning that Sauron never touched the Three after Gloin asked about the Three. In this case it would indicate that Sauron indeed never had possession of the Three.

    quote:

    (The counsil of Elrond)

    The Elves didn't answer. Did you not hear me, Gloin? Elrond asked. The Three weren't made by Sauron, nor did he ever touched them.

    later:

    Some hope that the Three Rings, Sauron never touched, will become free and that those that wield them, could mend the hurts of the world. But maybe, in the case the One is destroyed, the Three will fail and many fair things will wither and will be forgotten. That's what I believe. - Elrond
    Last edited by FC Groningen; January 11, 2013 at 08:15 AM.

  5. #265
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    - The reason Celebrimbor stopped trusting Sauron was because he heard Sauron utter the words that were written on the One Ring, so the effects of these rings weren't the reason.
    Not so quick... Celebrimbor made the Three w/o Sauron and without invisibility so Celebrimbor had some reson for not confiding in Sauron.

    - Gandalf also stated that the Three do not tolerate evil and also that these ones are rings Sauron never touched. The other ones do corrupt the heart in a way, while the other 3 don't seem to do that. Seems a pretty clear indication to me that Sauron modified these great rings as I doubt the Elves of Eregion would have crafted such tools for corruption. Also note that these 16 rings continued to corrupt without anyone bearing the One Ring capable of dominating the others.
    I agree the Noldor did not intend the rings to tools of dominion as used by Sauron - but the question might well be would they have noticed necessarily. I think it notable that there was a two way street in Hollin Sauron learned from the Noldor seeing as Celebribor seems to a gather more or less all the most knowledgeable and skilled Eldar and they learned from him. Since none of the rings baring the one maybe given to the house of Durin were ever intended by their makers to be other than for Eldar would they (the ring smiths) notice or care about how they would impact mortals. clearly the back door hack of the One ring was not perceived until S made the One and tried to implement it.

    Its not unreasonable to speculate that until the one was made the 16 were not so unsavory but their link was activated with Sauron's invocation.

    ===================


    edit: I also wondered something else. Would the other Great Rings (like the Nine) be able to enslave multiple people? It's generally assumed that Sauron kept the Nine and the remaining of the Seven with him. Would it be possible, after the complete corruption to hand these rings out to others? If that was the case, he could perhaps create an entire army of Nazgul.
    I would say not or at least not w/o Sauron holding the One.

    JRRT says about Gandalf using the One that if he mastered it would be equivalent for Sauron as its destruction. Just loosing your ring does not seem have been to bad - the Nazgul did not die but if somebody else took one for real the effect would seem to cause you to loose the Ring. Also without the One a ring lord could not control a ring user (except to snatch back the rings but not give them away - was the treat of holding the Nine serve or be destroyed when I give it to some other?)
    Last edited by conon394; January 11, 2013 at 07:57 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #266
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, I toss this bone and leave it to that hehe;
    Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.
    - Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power...
    And on other benefits from the Rings of Power, meaning a mage can be a great mage by a Ring but no Ring can make you a mage as for example;
    But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.
    - Letter 131
    (what is this, like the fourth time this letetr is quoted now? ^^)


    @ conon'
    Not so quick... Celebrimbor made the Three w/o Sauron and without invisibility so Celebrimbor had some reson for not confiding in Sauron.
    Only if invisibility was an original part of teh Rings
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 11, 2013 at 07:58 AM.

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  7. #267
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun


    But does that mean all the time when having the ring on or just by choice as somebody knowing what they have and of sufficient will?

    Only if invisibility was an original part of teh Rings
    Agree - that is more or less beyond knowing at this point - when the wrath world effect came into being always, with the One or after S manipulated them can only be speculation.
    Last edited by conon394; January 11, 2013 at 08:02 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #268
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But in that case, he had to touch them and modify them, else I don't see why the Three would be any different as they do not tolerate evil and weren't "triggered". Again, this is assuming Sauron never had the Three in his possession.

    About Celebrimbor not trusting Sauron anymore, I think that subject has been covered very clearly in the Silmarilion.

    edit: I hope at the very least the quotes are helpful here Editted a few in. Maybe even Tolkien made a few paradoxes in his attempts to fill in all the blanks
    Last edited by FC Groningen; January 11, 2013 at 08:05 AM.

  9. #269
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Can anyone explain what was that symbolism sizzle wizzle that guy was talking about? I didn't understand a word.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  10. #270
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Can anyone explain what was that symbolism sizzle wizzle that guy was talking about? I didn't understand a word.
    If you want to know just write him a VM or PM and ask, but keep it away from here

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  11. #271
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, he did ask it, and you asked me to fetch candles and at least I want a reason to fetch them

    Plus that ''Don't play with me" seemed really douche-ish


    But on the subject matter, I think that the Rings did not originally have the ability to make someone enter the wraith-world as they were intended for Elves, the majority of the intended wearers would have been Noldor, and thus, likely exist in both worlds at once.
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  12. #272
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Only Glorfindel existed in both worlds because he had died.

    Even if the Three Rings didn't make their wearers invisible, weren't they invisible themselves? Nobody could see Galadriel's ring except Frodo.
    I do not believe it is because he had died, it would rather have been because he had been in Aman ("the other side - the spirit world"). Notice that Gildor's company has an aura about them as they walk through the night. Galadriel would presumably have been the same.


    Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of Princes.

  13. #273

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I am not entirely positive Sauron had influence upon the seven after their initial making. Celembrimbor "revealed where they were bestowed" and one certainly was given too Durin III by Celembrimbor according to UT (pg 238) and Sauron nvere got at that one until he took it from Thrain.

    Whatever the One Ring's hack into the other Rings was it had to exist in the very nature of their making, or the Three would have been able to be wielded after it was destroyed. He never touched the Three and did not know they existed until he set the One onto his own finger, too say he was enraged at Celembrimbor seems to be an understatement.

    Nevertheless we know the making of the Rings in anyway is illegitimate and an act of rebellion, Tolkien says it is in one of his letters, as does Gil-Galad in the story, hence his banishment of Annater from the Havens for offering what was not in his power to legitimately give.

    Of course the question also arises what did Sauron contribute too the making of the Rings. The Noldor were already accomplished at the capturing of the essence of things like the Light of the Trees and the Sun as shown by the existence of the Silmarils and the Elessar. It seems Sauron did bring something inherently evil to the table though, necromancy, which gives one power ofer the life force. How this knowledge in the end affected the Three is up for debate, all I know for certain is that Elrond says it is probably better if the Three had never been made at all. What about the Three rings, makes Galadriel and Celembrimbor unable to destroy them, even though they know they should.
    Last edited by muller227; January 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM.

  14. #274
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well we only have two classes of ringbearer documented, men who become invisible (hobbits are a race of man afaik) when wearing the one and Elves/Maiar who wear the three and Sauron with the One. It could be said that only men become invisible due to the rings. There isn't any proof to the contrary afaik. It would make sense imo, dwarves are indomitable and elves on the whole are just different, their Feä was much stronger (or just more rooted in Arda since they cannot leave its confines unlike men) and thus i surmise that it is the weakness of spirit that causes invisibility from the rings, i believe this still holds true even if Sauron did corrupt the 16 after their making.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  15. #275
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Gildor's company
    You know Gildor still bugs the hell out of me - what a jerk - typical of why the West was getting its butt handed to it.

    Sure he and company were out for a walk but he clearly perceived Frodo was being chased by Nazgul not exactly a small matter, he was told Gandlaf was missing. Its nice he sent messages and gave Frodo the status of Elf Friend but you might think helping him get to the Ranger or Elrond might have at least been in order. The Whole we have our own worries and cares rubs me the wrong way, would that be the rings you guys made and the lore you shared with Sauron but now are going piss off on dealing with?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #276
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    Well we only have two classes of ringbearer documented, men who become invisible (hobbits are a race of man afaik) when wearing the one and Elves/Maiar who wear the three and Sauron with the One. It could be said that only men become invisible due to the rings. There isn't any proof to the contrary afaik.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post12450257

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  17. #277

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You know Gildor still bugs the hell out of me - what a jerk - typical of why the West was getting its butt handed to it.

    Sure he and company were out for a walk but he clearly perceived Frodo was being chased by Nazgul not exactly a small matter, he was told Gandlaf was missing. Its nice he sent messages and gave Frodo the status of Elf Friend but you might think helping him get to the Ranger or Elrond might have at least been in order. The Whole we have our own worries and cares rubs me the wrong way, would that be the rings you guys made and the lore you shared with Sauron but now are going piss off on dealing with?
    You know the first time I read the book my only exposure to Tolkien's Elves were the Elves of the Hobbit. So I did not think much of it until Glorfindel scares the bejesus out of all the nine a few chapters later. That was my first moment of "wait a minute"

    Now far too many years later I have too agree with Conon, I guess ME can thank its lucky stars that they ran into Elves of the folk of Firod Felegund and not some who had formerly been servants of Celegorm and/or Curufin. Though I suppose it is debateable, Gildor and Company likely could have walked the Hobbits all the way to Rivendell.

    Thinking about this I realize Sauron had another reason for being supremely pissed at Bolg, a ravaging orc Army loose in Eriador, drawing the attention of the Free Companies, the Ranger not too mention the walking talking light show that chases Nazgul for fun, at the same time as the Ring was being hunted for would have been very useful.
    Last edited by muller227; January 11, 2013 at 10:37 AM.

  18. #278
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thinking about this I realize Sauron had another reason for being supremely pissed at Bolg, a ravaging orc Army loose in Eriador, drawing the attention of the Free Companies, the Ranger not too mention the walking talking light show that chases Nazgul for fun, at the same time as the Ring was being hunted for would have been very useful.
    True but at the same time Saroun's grip was not I think all that firm on the Misty Mountains aside from the time when Angmar exited. Without the ring I think he could manage his direct armies but aside from maybe agitating various other evil creatures to restlessness I not sure could direct the orcs of the Misty Mountians.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #279

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    True but at the same time Saroun's grip was not I think all that firm on the Misty Mountains aside from the time when Angmar exited. Without the ring I think he could manage his direct armies but aside from maybe agitating various other evil creatures to restlessness I not sure could direct the orcs of the Misty Mountians.
    Yeah I sort of agree with this, which is why the OotMM is one my favorite factions, those little cockroaches are pretty much on their own. The Timexes of ME, they take their lickings and keep on ticking. Dwarven genocide no problem, massive military disaster after dragon gold, hey we are back. Don't see them milling about and casting themselves on swords, or jumping to their deaths when the boss they don't like dies. Nope its more like "we are outta here", sometimes they even seem too get away, they must because they keep coming back. However I think if his direct attention was focused on Bolg he could do a great deal of convincing it was a great idea to invade Eriador at that particular time. I am not exactly sure of Bolg's nature though, he may have been more resistant than a common orc to Sauron, more self willed so too speak.

    I sort of have this pet theory, that the OotMM are actually far more natural orcs, more free willed. There just seems to be something wrong with Mordor Orcs, though Sauron's proximity could explain that as well.
    Last edited by muller227; January 11, 2013 at 11:39 AM.

  20. #280

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The rings represent gods and cycles of elements in nature (hermetizm). 3 7 and nine rings are pagan gods but the one ring is the god that every religon and men talking about. Visibility cause of ring relates that if you apart yourself from world and blames god for everything happens in universe means you are thinking your conscious is not related universe and you became invisible to "other" people. Sauron could not direct his armies without ring because in every religion wars made for gods in other way.

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