Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2741
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As Flinn put it.

    A good summary from the Entmoot-forum, to my knowledge (while I have not read Osanwe-kenta this is in line with what I remember from HoME):
    Quote Originally Posted by Elanor Gamgee
    Tolkien discussed Elven telepathy (and telepathy in general) rather thoroughly in an essay called Osanwe-kenta ("Discussion of the communication of thought" in plain old English ) published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, July 1998. I believe that Christopher Tolkien mentions this essay in his notes in HoME XI (should be notes to Quendi and Eldar but I can as well be mistaken); mind-reading is also discussed in the Myths Transformed, HoME X. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Osanwe (though I'd love to) but basically the arguments boil down to the following:

    - All the Incarnates (Men, Elves and self-incarnated Ainur) posess the ability to communicate in thought and to "read minds". This ability varies between the races (Ainur are the most capable, Men the least) and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional).

    - Not even with the most powerful Ainur, the Valar, the mind-reading ability is complete, i.e. it's impossible to actually perceive someone's mind totally (to know what the person is thinking). Besides, if a person doesn't want to reveal his/her thoughts, he/she cannot be forced to do so. To dominate the others' will by fear or force of any kind in order to make them speak up is wicked; among the Valar Morgoth alone did such things.


    - Certain things would severely decrease telepathic abilities, and some other things would increase them. The most important decreasing factor is the existence of a body; that's why Men and Elves, who are permanently incarnate have lesser abilities than Ainur, who are spirits by their nature. Another major factor is language, because comminicating through words is much quicker and more precise than communicating in thought. Among facilitating factors are kinship/friendship (persons having affection for each other have it easier to communicate in thought); urgency; power of command (e.g. a commander trying to get in touch with the army has bigger chances to get through).
    as well as mentioned RotK, and Silmarillion;

    Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled in tongues; and Felagund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted.- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of Men into the West


    Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
    - RotK; Many Partings
    Though, one of the matters I've encountered is that O-k say this about distance for ósanwe [communication or interchange of thought] and lame [language]:
    Thus we see that the Incarnate tend more and more to use or to endeavour to use ósanwe only in great need and urgency, and especially when lambe is unavailing. As when the voice cannot be heard, which comes most often because of distance. For distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe. But those who by affinity might well use ósanwe will use lambe when in proximity, in habit or preference.
    However, Elves are incarnated, that may be a reason they could not communicate across distances, rather than the distances itself; at end we have no example of incarnates who communicate speechless unless they are close to each other.
    Last edited by Ngugi; July 23, 2014 at 03:45 AM.

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  2. #2742
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  3. #2743

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Wow, that's an impressive effort invested in this, and his talent is undeniable.

    EDIT:

    I have pretty straightforward question, and I’ll assume quite easy for you folk here.

    Númenor is known to have been divided in six main regions: Forostar, Andustar, Hyarnustar, Hyarrostar, Orrostar and Mittalmar.

    To which region does Nísimaldar and with it the port of Eldalondë belongs. Is it Mittalmar, Andustar or Hyarnustar?
    Last edited by Jagmodo; July 27, 2014 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #2744
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    great link but

    In very 21st century elvish-monk style, he hand-illuminated the text which had been printed on his home Canon inkjet printer.
    well I suppose it would have taken more than 6 months to him to make it all by hands, still it remains a great job
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  5. #2745
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagmodo View Post
    I have pretty straightforward question, and I’ll assume quite easy for you folk here.

    Númenor is known to have been divided in six main regions: Forostar, Andustar, Hyarnustar, Hyarrostar, Orrostar and Mittalmar.

    To which region does Nísimaldar and with it the port of Eldalondë belongs. Is it Mittalmar, Andustar or Hyarnustar?
    Is Nísimaldar technically a part of any region? Not sure, though if it would by any, I'd assume Andustar because it seems to belong to the description of that region more than any other;
    Quote Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales
    The Andustar was also rocky in its northern parts, with high firwoods looking out upon the sea. Three small bays it had, facing west, cut back into the highlands; but here the cliffs were in many places not at the sea's edge, and there was a shelving land at their feet. The northmost of these was called the Bay of Andúnië, for there was the great haven of Andúnië (Sunset), with its town beside the shore and many other dwellings climb*ing up the steep slopes behind. But much of the southerly part of the Andustar was fertile, and there also were great woods, of birch and beech upon the upper ground, and in the lower vales of oaks and elms. Between the promontories of the Andustar and the Hyarnustar was the great Bay that was called Eldanna, because it faced towards Eressëa; and the lands about it, being sheltered from the north and open to the western seas, were warm, and the most rain fell there. At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor, Eldalondë the Green; and hither in the earlier days the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressëa came most often.An about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressëa. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolairë and lairelossë, nessamelda,vardarianna, taniquelassë, and yavannamirë with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents and all that country was full of blended fragrance; therefore it was called Nísimaldar, the Fragrant Trees. Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly, in other region of Númenor; but only here grew the mighty golden tree malinornë reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressëa itself. ... They did not take root in [Grey Havens]; but Gil-galad gave some to his kins*woman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flour*ished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin, until the High Elves at last left Middle-earth; but they did not reach the height or girth of the great groves of Númenor.The river Nunduinë flowed into the sea at Eldalondë, and on its way made the little lake of Nísinen, that was so named from the abundance of sweet-smelling shrubs and flowers that grew upon its banks.The Hyarnustar was in its western part a mountainous re*gion...

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  6. #2746

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, I’m not sure either; that’s why I ask. I have read Unfinished Tales some time ago, but it is not really clear. Númenor is most commonly said to be divided in six mentioned regions so I assumed it should belong in one of them.

    If anyone else has an opinion be free to share it. And, thank you Ngugi once again.

  7. #2747

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    How would Fingolfin duel Morgoth?

    I mean, Elf like 2 metres tall at best, and Maiar who could stand against many more Maiars just by himself in the beggings of Arda.

    I mean, how should I imagine the duel? Was it only physical fight sword vs mace? If so why Morgoth wouldnt use his powers?
    But if he used his powers, how would Elf defend himself?
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  8. #2748
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    How would Fingolfin duel Morgoth?

    I mean, Elf like 2 metres tall at best, and Maiar who could stand against many more Maiars just by himself in the beggings of Arda.

    I mean, how should I imagine the duel? Was it only physical fight sword vs mace? If so why Morgoth wouldnt use his powers?
    But if he used his powers, how would Elf defend himself?

    This is how it went. Quote from the Henneth Annûn Story Archive

    Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruinof the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

    That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for... alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for... Fingolfin named Morgoth craven.... Therefore Morgoth... issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

    Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth.... Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away...; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

    But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all... pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck.... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

    Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor King of Eagles brought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face. The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away. And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the north upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over his father. No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mound of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made.

    Great was the lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known....

    The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 18, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
    By this time Morgoth's powers had greatly diminished having spend them in making "hordes of evil creatures" and making them bow to his will.
    I bet there are a few other visitors to this thread who could go a little more in depth on this.


    And there are always the movies!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Veteraan; August 03, 2014 at 02:43 PM.

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  9. #2749
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Morgoth indeed was weaker than ever before due to him controlling and infusing his servants with his will, but also by tainting the physical matter with his essence, in order to have control over it. To that come that in order to affect the physical world the Ainur take physical bodies (and Melkor had fallen so low in his corruption he no longer could leave his form, that he had come to feel need of), yet physical bodies are vulnerable to physical hurt. Ainur could be slayed and rendered impotent, powerless spirits, a fate equal to death, that we see with Saruman and at end Sauron, and we can presume other slayed Ainur such as Balrogs.

    Now, Sauron as is well known had his Ring that allowed him to reappear, and same goes for the much mightier Morgoth. While Sauron depended on his Ring, Morgoth had infused the earth, meaning he could not be defeated utterly less the earth is destroyed, that's why he instead was banished (but will return in the end). Tolkien called the world for Morgoth's Ring (this the name of one of the HoME-books)
    Fingolfin could have killed Morgoth's incarnated form, but it would not been his end, but his spirit would endure and he would soon be back to continue his war for domination; the Noldor fought a war they could not win, by themselves.
    Last edited by Ngugi; August 03, 2014 at 04:32 PM.

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  10. #2750

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Okay I see. That explains much...

    Also, Elves did fight balrogs, I dont imagine that too how they did this. Even Gandalf had problem with them and he is Maia. does that mean Elves in the ancient times were more powerful then those in third age? Did they actualy had some "powers"?
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  11. #2751
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Now, Sauron as is well known had his Ring that allowed him to reappear,
    Not entirely correct he didn't need his ring to reappear nor did other mighty Maiar or Valar need help to do it.
    It just takes longer and longer the more often it happens.

    . It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.' ~JRRT
    Even Gandalf had problem with them and he is Maia
    He according to what I have read was not allowed to use his full powers in Middle Earth.
    Last edited by Sint; August 11, 2018 at 09:06 AM.
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  12. #2752

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    Also, Elves did fight balrogs, I dont imagine that too how they did this. Even Gandalf had problem with them and he is Maia. does that mean Elves in the ancient times were more powerful then those in third age? Did they actualy had some "powers"?
    Adding to what Sint said, if I recall correctly, some passages of the Silmarillion presents a earlier concept of the Balrogs in which they were not Maiar. They were a race of themselves and there were hundreds of them, being much weaker than what Durin's Bane is (Feanor fought against several of them and still put up quite a fight).
    Later, Tolkien changed his mind in regards to the Balrogs essence, turning them into Maiar. They were lesser in number but much more powerful.
    Last edited by Bercor; August 03, 2014 at 05:43 PM.

  13. #2753
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But Feanor was a very very powerful Elf, and may even have entered a beserker rage which allowed him to fight many of the balrogs and orc hordes. Plus, he didn't kill any of them. Hell, even Fingon fought Gothmog until another Balrog cast him with a fire whip and Gothmog killed him. In short, killing Balrog's is difficult but the greatest elves could hold their own against them one on one.

  14. #2754
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post

    And there are always the movies!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Why do so many artists draw Fingolfin as blond?


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Love Fingolfin's sneakers.
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  15. #2755

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lortano View Post
    But Feanor was a very very powerful Elf, and may even have entered a beserker rage which allowed him to fight many of the balrogs and orc hordes. Plus, he didn't kill any of them. Hell, even Fingon fought Gothmog until another Balrog cast him with a fire whip and Gothmog killed him. In short, killing Balrog's is difficult but the greatest elves could hold their own against them one on one.
    Yes, Feanor was very powerful, though I would say his strenght lies more in his craftmanship than skill with weapons. Disregarding my reference to him, I think it's pretty clear Durin's Bane is much more powerful than some of his Silmarillion Balrogs' fellows. An example of that is that he defeated an entire army of Dwarves that dwelt in Moria at that time, forcing the survivors to flee. I find difficult to imagine one of the First Age Balrogs doing the same, judging by the accounts of their deeds in that time.

  16. #2756
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Because he was blond as his Vanya mother.

    Balrogs/Valaraukar grew in power and dwindled in nymbers in Tolkien's mind over time. But with regards to an army of Dwarves, I think it happened more like Alien 1 than like one monster vs an army in a titanic clash.

    Oh and an addendum; Feanor and Galadriel were the most powerful of Elves.

  17. #2757

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post

    Oh and an addendum; Feanor and Galadriel were the most powerful of Elves.
    No, Feanor was excelent craftsman but not a great fighter, Galadriel was wise but not powerfull. That title would go to Fingolfin or Ecthelion.

  18. #2758

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Because he was blond as his Vanya mother.
    Fingolfin?...nope!

  19. #2759

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Finarfin was the blond one.

  20. #2760
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Because he was blond as his Vanya mother.
    Nah, he looked like Finwe, not Indis. Finarfin was the one that inherited Indis' features.

    Quote Originally Posted by NejkoPejko View Post
    No, Feanor was excelent craftsman but not a great fighter, Galadriel was wise but not powerfull. That title would go to Fingolfin or Ecthelion.
    No. Fingolfin was a great warrior, but Feanor is clearly stated to be the most powerful. Powerful doesn't necessarily mean skilled with arms. And what is Ecthelion's claim to fame? Killing Gothmog? Feanor fought all Balrogs at once and lasted long enough for his sons to drive them off, and Fingolfin put up a good fight against Morgoth.
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