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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #241
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    Come on do not play with me. Also Da vinci's human shape under your avatar have same symbolism. Also in movie Unexpected Journey ,same symbolism in everywhere of Bilbo's house. In game rohan armours, bardian markmens shield, guards of khazad-dum shield plus a lot place that I do not remember. There must be a logical explanation of this.
    Presumably a classic example of "the one who seeks finds", eh?

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  2. #242
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Rather it's correct to say 'the 16 are fundemantally different from the 3
    Although JJRT does have Celebrimbor value the 16 differently as well...

    "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and
    other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and
    Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the
    Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were
    made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose."

    Thus we do seem to have been four grades of ring - The Three, The Seven, The Nine and the lesser rings of unknown number and fate or purpose. Since Sauron was able to find The Nine and lesser work but not the Seven it interesting to speculate how they were different such that they were clearly hidden apart and not found until Celebrimbor was broken.


    -------------------------------


    I deem it was because he had been in Aman, which may not be accurate but would be a more credible reason to me since for Elves their spirits goes to Mandos in Aman and never leave Arda in any way


    I concur here -

    "for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both
    worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
    'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that
    Glorfindel then?'
    'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn.
    He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

    Gandalf's description here seems to be general not specific to Glorfindel and recall he is only one of several riders sent out by Elrond who where deemed able to face the Nine, and since we know of other likes Elrond and Galadriel and her Brother who use power comparable to that of Gandalf or Sauron I think its clear thet it is a general condition of at least some Noldor who come from over the sea. You could quibble on Elrond but given his lineage and choice to be Eldar I think he must be included.


    --------------------

    Making the wearer invisible is (I think) one of the detrimental abilities of the Rings, part of making the wearer fade into the shadow realm.
    I think the invisibility conferred by the One is clearly a bit of Sauron tech, why I think the answer is in the UT

    "Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger
    with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth. But the Elendilmir of the West could not be
    quenched, and suddenly it blazed forth red and wrathful as a burning star.
    Men and Orcs gave way in fear; and Isildur,
    drawing a hood over his head, vanished into the night"


    If the unconscious/automatic invisibility was something the Elven smiths had added of there own free will and still unknowing of the deception under which they worked it would seem odd that something that was clearly a Noldor light gem would not work with the the power but in fact raged against it. Sauron made no light gems as far as I know and the last was made by one of the Last and Greatest Noldor Galadreil. Like the Palantir I suspect they were beyond him (as Gandalf says) and not something his wraith world shift could really account for.
    Last edited by conon394; January 10, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #243
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Indeed, however I'm having a hard time to get this quote to go hand in hand with all the other quotes saying that the reason the Seven had not the same effect as the Nine was due to the nature of the wearer, not the Rings
    To me it indicates either this was an "at that time-perception" on differences between the Seven and the Nine when written, or the difference was of no consequence?

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  4. #244
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Indeed, however I'm having a hard time to get this quote to go hand in hand with all the other quotes saying that the reason the Seven had not the same effect as the Nine was due to the nature of the wearer, not the Rings
    To me it indicates either this was an "at that time-perception" on differences between the Seven and the Nine when written, or the difference was of no consequence?
    My guess is that JRRT just liked his Rhyme and it was long in his head and so when considering the Second age and the fall of Hollin the distinction got written in and nobody ever had the chance to write him a letter since the UT was not published nor any actually story set in the Second Age - so he never had to think about it a lot.

    I would think Dwarves might just be by design like the Elendilmir simply not susceptible to Sauron's power or tampering. COnsider also its true the Nazgul are faded even w/o their rings so its quite possible they never were invisible until the power in them (the Nine) caused them (the Nazgul/Humans) to fade into undead slaves.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #245
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As usual then; conon', do you start drawing a pentagram on the floor? Macilrille, muller', care for some grave digging? Feanaro', buy some candles. 1st Viscount', we need robes. The rest of you, train your chanting.
    Ressurection is our only solution.

    But a letter claim all Rings, beside the 3, made one invisible.

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  6. #246
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ngugi, silence! None must know of our pentagrams and the Hidden Sun Death Cult crosses! gepetto is on to us! To even mention this in a post is punishable by death! Oh wait...dammit...

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Although JJRT does have Celebrimbor value the 16 differently as well......
    Good get conon, its not just the end user that differentiates the rings but their maker as well. Settles that question nicely.

    When Gandalf discusses the Ring with Frodo does he say he thought Bilbo might've found a lesser ring? The sort of thing elves made as playthings IIRC, so maybe elves dabbled in invisibility in a fit of hubris. It could weell be the sort of thing Annatar showed them.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #247

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Ngugi, silence! None must know of our pentagrams and the Hidden Sun Death Cult crosses! gepetto is on to us! To even mention this in a post is punishable by death! Oh wait...dammit...

    Hahaha. Why did you take that offensive? I just checked that will you discuss everything in Tolkien's world negative or positive. And I got my answers quickly more than I expected.

  8. #248

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    On dwarves I think the secret to their resistance lies in their creation. They were designed by Aule after the Valar's defeat by Morgoth. I think it says something along the lines that they were made especially durable and tough. I don't have the Sil being at work, but their is a quote concerning the fact that Aule made them especially difficult to either corrupt physically like orcs, or dominate. I know I have read that somewhere in either HoME or the Silmarillion I just cannot remember where. Nor do I have any hope that, that is the exact quote, more like a gist.

  9. #249
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yes, it's stated for example in Of the Rings...'
    The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

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  10. #250

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    As usual then; conon', do you start drawing a pentagram on the floor? Macilrille, muller', care for some grave digging? Feanaro', buy some candles. 1st Viscount', we need robes. The rest of you, train your chanting.
    Ressurection is our only solution.

    But a letter claim all Rings, beside the 3, made one invisible.
    i am up to bringing him back to life and watch as he has a heart attack about the lord of the rings movies and the hobbit movies,

  11. #251
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    Hahaha. Why did you take that offensive? I just checked that will you discuss everything in Tolkien's world negative or positive. And I got my answers quickly more than I expected.

    Jk and no offense meant. Ngugs was jking about pentagrams, we have had a few discussions on these threads where the only way to really settle it was to resurrect JRRT.


    ...You don't have a ouija board do you?

    Its great to question the texts from a bunch of angles and even throw up some curve balls. I'm as guilty of that as the next poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elven Warrior View Post
    i am up to bringing him back to life and watch as he has a heart attack about the lord of the rings movies and the hobbit movies,
    Sad to say I'm pretty sure JRRT would hate the movies, wouldn't even like the bits that I thought were OK.

    IIRC he became a crusty old bugger by the end and the trend of his work became almost dismal: at first he was all "Oh the Hobbit and joking with dragons and the Ring is just a plot device and Tom Bombabdillo and Farmer Giles of Ham tra la la" but then when he got old he was all "the Ring is EVIL and hobbits get PTSD and Turin slept with his sister dude".

    So its fair to guess he'd be all NO about PJ.

    Now if we could get back pre WW2 vintage JRRT he might cut a certain formerly plump kiwi some slack.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  12. #252
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sleeping with sister Túrin did before The Hobbit was written though, and he began it all with the story about how Gondolin got Exterminated (in TATW terms) ^^

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  13. #253

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Tolkien's greatest themes embodied in the Marring of Arda, Doom of Mandos as well as the base of his Metaphysical foundation of ME all exist Prior to the Hobbit published in 1937. One of the greatest aspects of LotR is that it takes for a story designed largely for his children from my understanding and expands working in so very subtley so much of what he had been working on since 1917. There are thematic hints laced throughout LotR. Lothlorien does more than introduce us to an Elf-Queen, it gives a shadowy glimpse of Valinor and a Great Family of Kings, Moria too me is darker and more terrifying than Mordor and physically the individual enemies hearken back to an earlier even more terrible age (A balrog, a primitive troll that it took an elf blade too wound, a very dangerous orc captain). The terrible consequences of oaths, The glory of the Amanian Eldar glimpsed in Glorfindel, (wonderful until you realize WTF they LOST). Arwen and Aragorn only hint at the greatest love story he ever wrote; it was the both the saddest and most heroic of his stories IMO, others have different favorites that one is mine.

    All of this existed prior to the Hobbit. Working it in was one of his primary goals in the writing(notated in a letter) as he long despaired of ever publishing the Silmarillion; point of fact he never succeeded in that.

    I think this is the issue I have with the movies, the labor involved in the creation of ME beggars my imagination, to see the changes especially in characterizations of events and people really bother me. Necessary well some likely were others I cannot be convinced were, but all bother on some level or another.



    As for resurrecting Tolkien all for it, that; or kidnapping CRRT and wringing his actual opinion out of him, I'd settle for that as well.

    As far as reconciling the Hobbit with other lore Tom, Will and Burt mystify me, in fact trolls in general mystify me. I sort of like Tom, Will and Burt though if they invited me FOR Dinner I would have to recall a pressing engagement
    Last edited by muller227; January 11, 2013 at 12:10 AM.

  14. #254

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    "'No, Lady,' he answered. `To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your finger'."

    Sam couldn't see the ring, so what did he see? A star? Nothing? How did Gandalf wear Narya "openly" at the end?

  15. #255
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Apperently the Three cannot be seen, while not making teh wearer unseen. Like an "Invisibility step 1" perhaps? ^^

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  16. #256
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Or perhaps it is "invisibility step 2" since the power of the rings isn't in the invisibility but in making changes to the world around the wielder (the preservation of Lorien for instance and the gathering of wealth for the the seven). Perhaps the original purpose was to make the rings invisible but it took a while to get it right.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  17. #257
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But the gathered wealth of the Seven is due to Dwarves getting greedy and working towards that end, not by 'spawning' gold into the mountains such speaking

    And I do not belive invisibility was a feature one had to learn, it either made you invisible wearing it or not;
    And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
    The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.
    - Letter 131
    If it was possible to control being or not being invisible (while we lack any support one could do so) it rather would be the opposit; perhaps they by control could remain seen, but it requires no effoert to become invisible as seen with wielders of the One. That's a part of the 16 Rings (of two or one kinds) intended purpose after all to make the wielder invisible, as that make you a wraith.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 11, 2013 at 05:56 AM.

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  18. #258
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ngugi

    You mean from 131?

    "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change'
    viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is
    more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus
    approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they
    had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts
    a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material
    body, and making things of the invisible world visible."

    "The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of
    their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility."

    "laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings
    (which he held) had primary control of their wills."

    Overall I still think this is an area were JRRT has not given the matter complete thought. If the Three do not confer invisibility It seems odd the others would as involuntary invisibility would be a bit annoying even the Eldar where it seems doubtful all were fully able to perceive the wrath world. I wonder if JRRT would have argued the invisibility was voluntary for somebody who could master a ring and recognized it for what it was.

    Or conversely do you have to were the ring to use it powers? We don't have a lot of examples Gandalf and Galadeil would seem to have theirs on and keep them hidden. The One is more complex. Only four mortals posses it (ignoring Dregol) of those only two properly lay claim to the One RIng with knolege of what they do and Isildur is hamstrung by the fact it either too hot still or maybe the pain he feels is the actual corruption of his soul since he is more in the league of sombody who could maybe weild it. But the effects of the Ring remain when not worn and even in losing it neither Gollum nor Bilbo up and die - with Bilbo not until the ring is destroyed (although I suppose since JRRT says Gandalf fully mastering the ring would be a blow comparable to its destruction maybe recovery by S would be the same to it former mortal possessors?).

    Or was invisibility in the wrath world always a creepy effect the Sauron gave the elves and that's why Celebrimbor stopped trusting Sauron.

    -----------------

    That's a part of the 16 Rings (of two or one kinds) intended purpose after all to make the wielder invisible, as that make you a wraith.


    Or is that a side effect on mortals? It just seems rather strange that if the Noldor were perceptive enough to know the One was made and what it would do I find it odd they would not also notice the down side of Sauron's input as they made the 16.

    Last edited by conon394; January 11, 2013 at 06:21 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #259
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Until I can find the quote stating that Sauron changed the 16 Rings before he handed them out to mortals I will resign from the debate, since my argumentation do not come together without it.

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  20. #260
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Not sure on whether these conclusions are already made or not, but:
    - The reason Celebrimbor stopped trusting Sauron was because he heard Sauron utter the words that were written on the One Ring, so the effects of these rings weren't the reason.
    - Celebrimbor didn't possess these 16 rings at this time, else he would have hid these rings, along with the other 3.
    - So far, I haven't seen sources that indicated that the bearers of the 7 or 3 ever became invisible. We know the 3 don't cause it to the people that wore them and I assume that the Dwarves didn't either for already mentioned reasons. No report of Thror becoming invisible has been made (to my knowledge). My take is that the bearers of the 9 weren't so either, until they became wraiths under the One.
    - I believe Gandalf stated in FotR, that the bearer of a Great Ring receives power accordingly to his/her previous stature. The average are empowered, but slowly start to fade away and enter the realm of the wraiths, but the wise and powerful (some already live in both worlds) are empowered and corrupted. To me it seems that only after you're completely corrupted/faded, you disappear from the visible world, except for the One Ring.
    - Gandalf also stated that the Three do not tolerate evil and also that these ones are rings Sauron never touched. The other ones do corrupt the heart in a way, while the other 3 don't seem to do that. Seems a pretty clear indication to me that Sauron modified these great rings as I doubt the Elves of Eregion would have crafted such tools for corruption. Also note that these 16 rings continued to corrupt without anyone bearing the One Ring capable of dominating the others.

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