Tolkien General Discussion II

[Flinn]

jumping in quite late, I know

on the matter of the genocide (I would call it epuration anyway ..) of Numenor, I think we should keep in mind that the invasion of Aman itself was just the last and most foolish action of numenorean's kings; as a matter of fact they enstranged themselves from the Valar and the Elves much before the captivity of Sauron

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Soon the Númenóreans came to become proud and discontented, irritated by the Ban of the Valar. Starting to lose the meaning of the Gift of Men and of immortality they longed for Eldamar which they saw only from distance.
About 1800 they started to dominated the shores of Middle-earth and demand tribute from the lesser peoples which they had liberated and taught, and became a massive brutal maritime empire that had no rival. Fearing death, they tried to gain some immortality in riches and ornate tombs. Tar-Atanamir started to speak openly against the Valar.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2,032 Ban of the Valar is questioned, Eagles abandon Meneltarma
2,251 Elven tongue is forsworn in Númenor by King's Men
2,960 Gimilzôr born, Elven tongue abandoned in Númenor

3,117 Míriel born, Elves no longer permitted entrance to Númenor, Elven tongue forbidden in Númenor 3,177 Death of Ar-Gimilzôr, Tar-Palantir takes Sceptre, Civil War in Númenor, Prophecy of the White Tree given

these are just but few examples on how the things went worse during many hundred years, plus we also have to consider that they have been warned various times by many means (the eagles abandoning Numenor, the death of the White three, the storms hitting the ships, some direct warnings, etc), so one can't really say that they have not deserved the end they met, honestly. Finally, the faithfull were spared, and that's why I speak of "epuration", though I know the term has a bad background

Furthermore, for their own decision, after the War of Wrath the Valar refrained to interfere directly into the "mortal plan" and that's why they called on Eru, who surely took it really bad (being the first time ever that someone dared to attack directly Aman to conquer it), but none the less he also spared the army of Pharazon for the Last Battle, which to me means that despite of everything Eru left a door open for them to redeem (pretty similar to what happened to the Army of the Deads I think). Sauron could have been destroyed to punish him too, but apparently Eru once again retreated his might and left to the Faithfull the duty to avenge and redeem their whole people and to finally ban Sauron, or this is how I see it at least, knowing just a little bit the ideas of the Professor.

Honestly, if I have to complain about something, is not the harshness of the punishment, but the stupidity of the act(s).

spinning out: do any of you guys actually ever thought that the Hobbits were specifically "created" to be the best force to oppose Sauron and his way of dominating men? (basically greed, for power, richness or immortality); if a great man like Isildur easily fell under the influence of the ring, both Bilbo and Frodo (not to speak of Sam, who really gave the ring back to his master and was even able to not to be fooled by the visions of power and greatness it gave him) did really well. Of course Eru creates to give life and not to take it away, but I won't see why he would not have kept in mind the "environment" when releasing the hobbits (Aule did pretty much the same)

my coins

edit: damn lost internet connection, pretty completely ninjad by dad and mom.. if this is NOT a sign, I don't know what could be called so..

[Veteraan]

Well, when you actually do respond, you certainly do it in a grand style. Much more to be found here (and in Ngugi's) post than in mine.

You probably didn't loose Internet connection but only the connection to this site. It happened to me too (viva autosave!!).
It happens quite frequently to me and it seems it (amongst a few other problems) has something to do with cloudflare.

Perhaps it's a sign, but I really have no clue at all what that would be about.

[Ngugi]

That Flinn don't fall far from the tree?


On Hobbits;
Well, Hobbits are quite uniqe unclear in the sense that we know nothing about their origin, other than that they are a race of Men, and all our origin is ambigious too. Hobbit lore is not my strong side, but I doubt they were created in relevant ways different from other humans. They are used as embodiment for (in general but not alltogether) good and benevolent aspects of humanity, while there's dark sides in them too, and thematicly it would lost an important point if they were created in that way and thus were 'non-human' in their being.

Concerning Isildur I'd like to raise a voice in defence of him, which I assume seldom occur ^^
While he indeed did became affected enough to not destory the Ring (though that was somewhat sapient and would allow Sauron to return was after all not known), he held it for two years and became no megalomaniac tyrant or alike for all that time. From the top of my mind we know not that it affected him at all, beside that it made him hang on to It.
Yet indeed at the last battle he was aware of his folly and intended to deliver the One to the holders of the Three.

[Flinn]

I'm a defender of Isildur myself, and that's why I said "if such a great man .. "

on the hobbit: I believe it is intentional if their origin is kept obscure.. the reasons behind could be variuos, but I'll take my speculations for myself, I've not heart for that kind of discussion today

Perhaps it's a sign, but I really have no clue at all what that would be about.

That Flinn don't fall far from the tree?

the mom is always the mom

[Veteraan]

After realizing that I actually do have a copy of Tolkien's letters (in Dutch) that has been standing in one of my bookcases unread for - cough - 30 years, I decided that perhaps now I was mature enough to read it. It will take some time though.
I did find some interesting bits about Hobbits, which probably already have been quoted in this thread but they seem somewhat relevant to the above posts.

In the middle of this Age the Hobbits appear. Their origin is unknown (even to themselves)+ for they escaped the notice of the great, or the civilised peoples with records, and kept none themselves, save vague oral traditions, until they had migrated from the borders of Mirkwood, fleeing from the Shadow, and wandered westward, coming into contact with the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arnor. Their chief settlement, where all the inhabitants are hobbits, and where an ordered, civilised, if simple and rural life is maintained, is the Shire, originally the farmlands and forests of the royal demesne of Arnor, granted as a fief: but the ‘King’, author of laws, has long vanished save in memory before we hear much of the Shire. It is in the year 1341 of the Shire (or 2941 of the Third Age: that is in its last century) that Bilbo - The Hobbit and hero of that tale - starts on his ‘adventure’.
Tolkien letters 131

+The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men ‘at a pinch’.
Tolkien letters 131

The chief way in which Hobbits differ from experience is that they are not cruel, and have no blood-sports, and have by implication a feeling for "wild creatures", that are not alas! very commonly found amongst the nearest contemporary parallels.
Tolkien letters 154

[Funeh]

Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?

[Veteraan]

Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?

Was this perhaps intended for the "Want to play? Quiz..." ?

[Funeh]

What? Im just asking a question...

[Ngugi]

Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?

When he had left Hobbiton he had wandered off aimlessly, along the Road or in the country on either side; but somehow he had steered all the time towards Rivendell. `I got here without much adventure,' he said, `and after a rest I went on with the dwarves to Dale: my last journey. I shan't travel again. Old Balin had gone away. Then I came back here, and here I have been. ...'
- FotR; Many Meetings

[Funeh]

Thank you... Just watching the movies right now so this came to my mind

[Duke Valentino]

That Flinn don't fall far from the tree?


On Hobbits;
Well, Hobbits are quite uniqe unclear in the sense that we know nothing about their origin, other than that they are a race of Men, and all our origin is ambigious too. Hobbit lore is not my strong side, but I doubt they were created in relevant ways different from other humans. They are used as embodiment for (in general but not alltogether) good and benevolent aspects of humanity, while there's dark sides in them too, and thematicly it would lost an important point if they were created in that way and thus were 'non-human' in their being.

Concerning Isildur I'd like to raise a voice in defence of him, which I assume seldom occur ^^
While he indeed did became affected enough to not destory the Ring (though that was somewhat sapient and would allow Sauron to return was after all not known), he held it for two years and became no megalomaniac tyrant or alike for all that time. From the top of my mind we know not that it affected him at all, beside that it made him hang on to It.
Yet indeed at the last battle he was aware of his folly and intended to deliver the One to the holders of the Three.

Indeed. I think that the stereotype came from the movies? Like when Elrond tells him to cast it in the fire. I don't think Elrond (in the book) even knew that Isildur had the ring, or that Sauron had a ring at all. I might be wrong. There is no mention of Isildur being corrupted, he was definitely a man of strong will.

[Ngugi]

`Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.'
- FotR

The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

(gotta go now but here's two examples that he did know and Isildur did not listened)

[Duke Valentino]

Thanks

[Flinn]

just to put down some more lines on Isildur, though it is true that he did not become corrupted by the ring, his will was surely immediatly and unequivocally bent to it: no one more than him would have rejoiced from the annihilation of Sauron, having lost his homeland and his people, his father and brother and having suffered so many wounds while contrasting him.

this leads me to the consideration that he was also probably lucky in this sense, I mean to be with Cirdan and Elrond who did not try to sieze the ring from him, as surely the way you put your hands on it really makes the difference on how it acts on you; just imagine if he actually had to kill the two elves to keep it..
Elrond was definitely the wisest, no doubt

[Infidel144]

There is a theory that because it would have to be a Dwarven ring that Sauron had recovered it was lesser than the elven rings or the one ring, so that it wouldn't actually convert him into a wraith, plus those Dwarven rings had already lost quite a bit of power trying to make their former masters wraiths.

Never heard of that theory. But it is not supported by what Tolkien wrote. The 7 Elven rings that were given to Dwarves did not cause the Dwarves to become wraiths because Dwarves could not be 'wraithified'. There is nothing from Tolkien that says the Rings would lose power that way.

But that is assuming that when Tolkien refers to the MOS joining Sauron when he rose again, which would make him over 1000 years old. The other theory is that he joined Sauron when he rose again 68 years or something before the War of the Ring, which would make him roughly the age of Aragorn.

Yes, I am familiar with the arguments.

[Ngugi]

just to put down some more lines on Isildur, though it is true that he did not become corrupted by the ring, his will was surely immediatly and unequivocally bent to it: no one more than him would have rejoiced from the annihilation of Sauron, having lost his homeland and his people, his father and brother and having suffered so many wounds while contrasting him.

this leads me to the consideration that he was also probably lucky in this sense, I mean to be with Cirdan and Elrond who did not try to sieze the ring from him, as surely the way you put your hands on it really makes the difference on how it acts on you; just imagine if he actually had to kill the two elves to keep it..
Elrond was definitely the wisest, no doubt

Concur on that it was lucky for Isildur, and as far as we can tell Elrond and/or Cirdan too if they had won such a fight, considering the difference between the effects on Smeagol and Bilbo.
I quote a bloke who I think got it good on another site, on the topic why the Ring was not taken from Isildur;

I'm not sure Elrond or Cirdan really had that much knowledge of the Ring's significance. No one but Sauron had actually worn the ring. All they knew for sure was that the One Ring could be used by Sauron to control the other rings. No doubt Elrond understood the general nature of power and evil and had a pretty good guess that keeping the Ring was a bad idea, that no good could come of it, and that the reasonable thing to do was to destroy it.

But to murder King Isildur, your greatest ally and leader of the army of Men, because you think he's making a big mistake? That's really extreme! It is easy to talk about killing people for the greater good, much harder to do in practice when you are a good person like Elrond. You don't just murder your friends on the spur of the moment because you strongly disagree with what they just did. It just isn't realistic, that is not normal behavior.
...
Also, while I'm not so sure about this, didn't the White Council seem rather reluctant to believe that the Necromancer was Sauron? Suggesting that Elrond didn't understand, even then, the true nature of the Ring, and that its existence meant that Sauron would inevitably return. I don't think anyone (except Saruman) truly understood the full nature and danger of the Ring until Gandalf did his research on Bilbo's ring.

There's as far as I can recall no proof anyone knew the One could allow Sauron to return, at the time of the Last Alliance.

Never heard of that theory. But it is not supported by what Tolkien wrote. The 7 Elven rings that were given to Dwarves did not cause the Dwarves to become wraiths because Dwarves could not be 'wraithified'. There is nothing from Tolkien that says the Rings would lose power that way.


Yes, I am familiar with the arguments.

As Infidel144 say.
Strictly speaking, there's no fading of power until the One is destroyed.

The credible conclusion, all things accounted for, is that MoS was a mortal Man, from between old (in normal sense) to middle-aged.
The Dark Tower only "rose again" once, because it only fell once. There's no reason in reading the Dark Tower as symbolism for Sauron personally or any other interpetation, when it is nowhere implied Tolkien did not mean Barad-dûr, and reading it otherwise only cause contradiction to our other informations.
The Dark Tower arose from 2951 and was constructed during an unknown amount of time, if Tolkien did mean he was on the spot year one it would make MoS +68 years, presumably over 85, but then we must assume that 'first' in "And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again..." must mean 2951. I think not, but that he joined at some time during the construction which do not call for an old man riding forth; that's up to each and everyone to conclude for themselves.
Also, for the record, the material, concerning how the divine gifts that made the Dunedain uniqe were lost, speaks for that the BNs during the LotR had the same lifespan as all other mortal Men; with the exception on the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor who still were on the 'right path' according to Eru Iluvatar. If JRR, unspoken, had in mind when writing that the MoS and BNs were to have long lives still, he debunked that chance elsewhere.



Btw, Infidel144, Michael Martinez do in a blog say the seven and nine were taken and that Sauron "perverted them". I do not value him highly but as fars as I can recall he do not tend to misquote when he choses to base his conclusions on lore, but I can not find this statment; do you know?

[Aikanár]

Btw, Infidel144, Michael Martinez do in a blog say the seven and nine were taken and that Sauron "perverted them". I do not value him highly but as fars as I can recall he do not tend to misquote when he choses to base his conclusions on lore, but I can not find this statment; do you know?

I remember that, off hand I'd say it's in the Unfinished Tales (probably either in the hunt for the ring or in concerning Galadriel), but don't nail me on that.

[Veteraan]

“But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.”


― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion Of the rings of power and the third age

[Duke Valentino]

Do you think the MOS is when described as 'Black Numenorean' a full blood? Or rather descended from them? We know that would at least be similar to Aragorn, that he had dominantly Numenorean ancestors, like Aragorn's line dominantly had Dunedain mothers and fathers. Assuming that the MOS was 85 give or take and assuming that he wasn't necessarily old or crippled from age, he must have been like Aragorn, but maybe a bit of mortal men here and there in his bloodline, unless he was completely pure 100% Numenorean.

[Ngugi]

Seems to be from Of the Rings of Power', out of all places, to obvious for me to even look for (and then I had dived into all LotR, UT and 6 volumes of HoME to find any clue haha! Sigh...)

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them.

But good, I've longed for this argument's confirmation or dismissal to concern what could been the 16s original features and abilities and what may not.



@ Veteraan
Thanks; seems we found it both about the same time


@ Duke'
We have no clue at all if the MoS was 'pure' or not, but we can expect most BNs were not (assuming dwindled do not mean went extinct then all remaining were not);

After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor.
- Appendix A

[Dunedain and Numenorean are the same thing may be added]
Yet it matter little, as I will try to outline.
The Numeneans started to lose their long lives already on Numenor in the middle of the Second Age because they started to break with Eru;

XII Tar-CiryatanHe was born in the year 1634, and ruled for 160 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 2029, and died in 2035. He was a mighty King, but greedy of wealth; ... It is said that he constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor be seen.


XIII Tar-Atanamir the Great
He was born in the year 1800, and ruled for 192 years, until 2221, which was the year of his death. Much is said of this King in the Annals, such as now survive the Downfall. For he was like his father proud and greedy of wealth, and the Númenóreans in his service exacted heavy tribute from the men of the coasts of Middle-earth. In his time the Shadow fell upon Númenor; and the King, and those that followed his lore, spoke openly against the ban of Valar, and their hearts were turned against the Valar and the Eldar; ... Atanamir is called also the Unwilling, for he was the first of the Kings to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce the sceptre; and he lived until death took him perforce in dotage.
...

XV Tar-Telemmaitë
He was born in the year 2136, and ruled for 140 years, until his death in 2526. Hereafter the Kings ruled in name from the death of their father to their own death, though the actual power passed often to their sons or counsellors; and the days the descendants of Elros waned under the Shadow.
- UT; The Line of Elros

In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.
- Akallabeth

They may speak about blood and purity a lot, and indeed the gifts had been given to them by God and not to other folks, but the empirical evidence keep providing us a different emphasis than blood;

After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dúnedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. For many of the great had been slain in the Kin-strife; while Eldacar showed favour to the Northmen, by whose help he had regained the crown, and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.
- Appendix A

This mingling [with the Northmen of Rhovanion] did not at first hasten the waning of the Dúnedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenóreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star.
-Appendix A

[King Valacars] queen had been a fair and noble lady, but short-lived according to the fate of lesser Men, and the Dúnedain feared that her descendants would prove the same...
Therefore when Eldacar succeeded his father there was war in Gondor. But Eldacar did not prove easy to thrust from his heritage. To the lineage of Gondor he added the fearless spirit of the Northmen. He was handsome and valiant, and showed no sign of ageing more swiftly than his father.
-Appendix A

That Eldacar was "only" half Númenorean had no relevant impact, indeed he lived longer than the unmingled contemporary kings of Arnor, and also than the successor kings, longer than Aragorn too who as far as we know had only a minimal part non-Numenorean blood [from named Eldacar] but was all Numenorean otherwise.
Keeping 'pure' did at best mean the shorter lifespan became shorter slower.

Also the lifespan those even of the purer blood steadily decreased.
- about the Dúnedain of Gondor under the Stewards, HoME 12

The encouraged "inbreeding" then? Can it somehow be motivated if its not a genetic issue?
To stick to marry other Dúnedain appear to do have advantages. The Men of ME have as for what it seem possibly more of 'Middle-earth' that risk make you less 'blessed' thus not live as long [this is possibly a straight misconception of the inhabitants of Arda through looking at the examples and the known misconception of mixing blood]; another long lived may have a better chance [more time] to understand good values and live a good life thus maintaining more of the blessing thus keeping more 'blessings' among the people. Important ofc, since they face great enemies and one great Enemy.
But Aragorn is not good because he's "inbreed", he's good because he make exceptionally good choises and approved actions, it is in that light we can understand why he suddenly lived for 210 years while his grandfathers had dropped down to some 150-160 years of age over the lenght of the Third Age.

Now, this is partly my considerations and I do not deem that should be a proof what the topic concern, weither read as interetsing or not.
So, speculations aside, we do know four things that are matters of importance;

#1) Living in opposition to Eru's will decrease the lifespan [even when on Númenor, prior to #3]
#2) Living in Middle-earth will decrease the lifespan
#3) Eru will withdraw the gifts little by little since Númenór is lost, thus decrease the lifespan
#4) Mingling with other Men will in some minor way decrease the lifespan

The Black Númenóreans fulfilled all these four criterias.
If the Gondorians over 3000 years after Numenors fall has lost most of their long life, even the splendid princes of Dol Amroth from the purer area of Belfalas managed "only" just over 110 as a rule, then BNs who lived in direct opposition to Eru according to reason can not had gifts left, including long life.
They may had their lenght still, perhaps even skills and knowledge preserved, but, and I know that is not manys cup of tea (because of expectations and personal preferences; but then again its Tolkiens pot and not mine), they would not [at the end of the Third Age] be evil opposites equals to the western Dunedain.