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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #221

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    Aha! it's alt+6 and then press 'u'. Stupid macs making things different for no real reason

    @muller227
    That makes sense in a way but i reckon that Tolkien's view on inheritance and genealogy makes me think that the lines of those houses was broken, although Thorin's example may be the way to consider this. He was not called king until he ruled so perhaps the other houses still have a 'king' but because they hold no kingdom they are not called such but they wield power as leader of the house. Thorin did not command any troops but he asks Dáin to come to his aid and he did. It also occurs to me that if Sauron wanted to sow dissent in Khazad Dûm he would have given the rings to those uncrowned kings.

    Looking at DCI:LA i noticed that Ngugi had quoted from App. B which may point to another thesis. It says 'Many' of the dwarves from Ered Luin moved to Khazad Dûm, not 'all'. It seems to me that the pride of the dwarves would possibly preclude a king from living under another's roof, Thorin worked as a merchant and blacksmith wandering Eriador rather than go to his kin in the East where they were doing well (not much gold but they were making a proper home). I can imagine the other kings doing similar things until a point when they died alone or were killed by servants of the Enemy and their rings were brought back to Sauron.
    Those are all excellent points concerning the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, I don't think there is any right answer to this question. There are I think multiple answers that can be brought in line with lore fairly convincingly. Considering how dwarves are generally spoken of; Lord and King seems pretty interchangable. Damn Ngugi asks difficult questions.

  2. #222
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, least I have broaden my perception to belive there might lived a royal house in the same manner as the Longbeard royal house after Erebor's destruction in exile, and I can tell I was very much inclined to belive they did not exist at all, so while it not helped me reach conlusion or end up with practical insights I do find it enlightning ^^

    Shall you say muller? Evolution anybody?

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  3. #223
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    DARWIN FTW!

  4. #224
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    A couple thoughts.

    As far as I know JRRT never said who wrote the full ring Rhyme. Only the part the invocation of Sauron is attributable to one person/source and was known by the holders of the 19 other rings except for maybe the Lord of Moria if he really did get his ring from Celebrimbor.

    The distribution of the rings in the Rhyme has already been noted as not either the original intention of Either the Noldor or Sauron.

    Neither the Dwarves or Elves seem all that talkative about who had the rings.

    On balance than I would suggest the Full Rhyme is a product of the Northern Rangers and related to this...

    Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. ...

    "Even in Gondor they were a secret known only to a few; in Arnor they were remembered only in a rhyme of lore among the Dunedain.'"

    The Rangers had lost their cities and lived what looks like a hard life but for visits to Rivendell. But unlike Gondor or Rohan they were on the White Council and Isildur seems to have known at least generally that there were keepers of the Three. So I thinking is a poetic mnemonic to recall in general the disposition of the Rings that came to be but not necessarily a accurate record like say 'Pengolod's commentary on what the Dark lord did with the rings". As such I don't think it can be take literally since as we no only one/two rings were ever held by an elven 'king'


    Overall than while there are seven rings for Dwarves and JRRT eventually got around to seven houses of Dwarves - does it follow that they all went to each house? After all Sauron is willing to at least offer three to Dain for information on Bilbo.
    Last edited by conon394; January 10, 2013 at 11:25 AM.
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  5. #225
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Beside the fact that they were not on the White Council I do not find that theory unbelivable

    The three must be a false bait, Sauron hated Dwarves with Rings since they were of no maximized potential to Him.

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  6. #226
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sauron would probably have given Dain the rings, and then dealt with them later, possibly suspecting that the greed for gold might do it's work in time. The Seven were useless to him, considering some were eaten by Dragons, and that Dwarves couldn't be directly controlled by him.

  7. #227
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Beside the fact that they were not on the White Council I do not find that theory unbelivable

    The three must be a false bait, Sauron hated Dwarves with Rings since they were of no maximized potential to Him.
    Sauron wouldn't overlook the advantages they could bring, namely possibly surrendering the One to him.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I like the idea that it was a Ranger children's rhyme used to preserve their knowledge. It makes me want to rewrite the descriptions for my new Northern Dúnedain Loremaster buildings to fit that idea.

    Edit:
    Just because the 7 were originally given to Dwarves doesn't mean other races couldn't use it?
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    I like the idea that it was a Ranger children's rhyme used to preserve their knowledge. It makes me want to rewrite the descriptions for my new Northern Dúnedain Loremaster buildings to fit that idea.

    Edit:
    Just because the 7 were originally given to Dwarves doesn't mean other races couldn't use it?
    They could probably. Gandalf was able to use Narya.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  10. #230
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lortano View Post
    Sauron would probably have given Dain the rings, and then dealt with them later, possibly suspecting that the greed for gold might do it's work in time. The Seven were useless to him, considering some were eaten by Dragons, and that Dwarves couldn't be directly controlled by him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Sauron wouldn't overlook the advantages they could bring, namely possibly surrendering the One to him.
    I'm just sceptical he would have handed them over first; it's presented like it will be the reward if they first grab the One/Bilbo or possibly if giving info on the One, meaning it's a lie
    'At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. "As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this," he said: "that you should find this thief," such was his word, "and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord.'
    - Glóin, The Council of Elrond


    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    Edit:
    Just because the 7 were originally given to Dwarves doesn't mean other races couldn't use it?
    No, they were not made for Dwarves but for Elves (it was those Sauron wanted to control), while apperently they worked for Dwarves and Men too
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 10, 2013 at 12:11 PM.

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  11. #231

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The 7 and the 9 are fundamentally different from the 3 in two respects. One the Three are much more powerful (Celembrimbor considered the other rings besides the 3 of little importance), they work on a large scale beyond the wearer, altering time, health and spirit; second Sauron had no part in the making of the Three. The seven and the nine are the rings that revealed Sauron's true intention. In all likelihood they were conceptually designed to in some way interrupt individual fading in ME something of great concern to Elves from Aman still present (especially Feanorian I would suspect). I am speculating on this issue, and of course there could be better theories. How Sauron tech altered them, to make them an evil trap opening them too dominance I am not sure.
    Last edited by muller227; January 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM.

  12. #232

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The messenger bringing Sauron's offer, was he the Mouth of Sauron or just another messenger?

  13. #233
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Rather it's correct to say 'the 16 are fundemantally different from the 3' since the only difference between the 7 and the 9 are that 7 were given to Dwarves and 9 to Men. It was he nature of the wearer (Man or Dwarf) that made them react different, not the Rings they are wearing.
    The possible exception is Durin's Ring but that I percive as impossible to know, since what Sauron added to the Rings (but not to the 3 since he had not them in his posession after being revealed but before handed out), the trap of entering the invisible realm, could not affect Dwarves anyway;
    The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.
    And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.
    But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.
    - Letter 131


    Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.
    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age


    ‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’

    - Gandalf, FotR; The Shadow of the Past
    Unfortunatly this arguments last and somewhat key quote is lost to me. It describes how Sauron corrupted the 16 (further) between ganing them and handing them out to Dwarves and Men, in my meaning the time when invisibility was made a feature of the Rings.
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  14. #234
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Salah-ad-deen View Post
    The messenger bringing Sauron's offer, was he the Mouth of Sauron or just another messenger?
    We do not know, when I first read the books I thought he reminded me of a Nazgûl with that hissing breath of his.




    Ngugi, I am dead tired, so I may be missing something here, but where in all this do you see that it is between gaining them and handing them out again that Sauron corrupted the Rings?

    I rather assumed always that in his guise as Annatar, he was part of making all 16 (and many lesser) Rings of Power, but that Celebrimbor intuitively suspected him and did not include him in the Three. But that all "below" the Three were corrupted from their making, because he had a hand in it.

  15. #235
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The 3 do not make the wearer invisible, thus I consider this the additional machination by Sauron when the had taken the 16, before handing them out.
    Considering Elven lords already exists in the other "world" (see Glorfindel at the Ford of Bruinen; and mind that Eregion's Elves, who are the only we know get any before Sauron is revelead, were Noldor) there would be no purpose to make them invisible to in that order make them part of the "wraith world" [term from Gandalf] so they can be controlled.

    Apperently Sauron percived the Rings as they were enough to control the Elves when he made It and I think it was, so whatever change made once he recaptured them must been for the sake of mortals. The invisibility-trap is such an addition I consider credible.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 10, 2013 at 02:53 PM.

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  16. #236

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Only Glorfindel existed in both worlds because he had died.

    Even if the Three Rings didn't make their wearers invisible, weren't they invisible themselves? Nobody could see Galadriel's ring except Frodo.

  17. #237
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I deem it was because he had been in Aman, which may not be accurate but would be a more credible reason to me since for Elves their spirits goes to Mandos in Aman and never leave Arda in any way


    ' ... Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring? ' she asked turning again to Sam.
    'No, Lady,' he answered. `To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your finger'.
    - FotR; The Mirror of galadriel
    It may of course be so that Celerimbor was not skilled enough to add the trait of invisibility to them, or chose not to.

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  18. #238
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The Rings of Power conferered ablities according to the power of the weilder: Sauron was wearing the One on Mt Doom when he slew GilGalad and Elendil, and he was surely visible.

    I am sure the Three could give their wearers amazing abilities but Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf would be able to switch their powers on and off at will. Gandalf may well have been able to become invisible and just chose not too, so the dwarves and Bilbo and his various other companions would not know he wore Narya.

    Making the wearer invisible is (I think) one of the detrimental abilities of the Rings, part of making the wearer fade into the shadow realm.

    Are there really a seperate Seven and Nine, or is it the Sixteen as Ngugs a suggests? All we have is the rhyme to tell us their number, not their abilities and IIRC at the CoE Gandalf states that only the three are are different.

    As for who wrote the Rhyme about the rings, I believe only the elves knew about all of them as they were the makers. Not Men nor Dwarves were trusted to know all by elves or by Sauron: perhaps it was Sauron himself? Unlikely, though he certainly spake the last stanza in his great spell of making.

    I feel it was sung first by the greatest wizard of middle Earth, foremost authority on Ringlore (aside from Celebrimbor and Annatar) and most learned maiar in Middle Earth, Saruman the White.
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  19. #239
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    I rather assumed always that in his guise as Annatar, he was part of making all 16 (and many lesser) Rings of Power, but that Celebrimbor intuitively suspected him and did not include him in the Three. But that all "below" the Three were corrupted from their making, because he had a hand in it.
    That's pretty much how i saw it aswell.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  20. #240

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Perhaps you could elaborate a bit and be more clear if you are referencing films vs the Books or do you mean the game mod?

    Arnor for example has only one symbol in the Books a single many pointed star - no cross
    Come on do not play with me. Also Da vinci's human shape under your avatar have same symbolism. Also in movie Unexpected Journey ,same symbolism in everywhere of Bilbo's house. In game rohan armours, bardian markmens shield, guards of khazad-dum shield plus a lot place that I do not remember. There must be a logical explanation of this.

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