Tolkien General Discussion II

[smoesville]

I think we can all agree that Gandalf is a meddling jackass who always gets things wrong Not really though he is not infallible like all of the Wise. It is possible that he said "kings" just to make it simpler, instead of "Lords and Kings".

One thing that might weaken the argument is actually in the verse about the rings itself, look at line three on the Nazgul, it doesn't say anything about them being kings, though the quote you have from the Sil points to at least two (could even just be the WK). Interestingly the verse also throws doubt on the actual wording, the elven rings were only worn by two kings, Gil-Gilad and Celebrimbor though Gil-Gilad wore two of them before handing them onto others (Círdan and Elrond) and Celebrimbor gave his to Galadriel.

''Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

[Gr1m_4c3]

I think we can all agree that Gandalf is a meddling jackass who always gets things wrong Not really though he is not infallible like all of the Wise. It is possible that he said "kings" just to make it simpler, instead of "Lords and Kings".

Good point - dialogue-wise it'd be fairly clunky. Unfortunately there's very little said on the matter of the Seven at all (at least in that chapter), so we only have that line to really call upon as relevant.

One thing that might weaken the argument is actually in the verse about the rings itself, look at line three on the Nazgul, it doesn't say anything about them being kings, though the quote you have from the Sil points to at least two (could even just be the WK).

I could be wrong (and probably am), but I think Khamul was described as a king in some context...I'll have to do some research on that if need be, but I don't think it's hugely necessary. That line refers to the Nazgul all as one collective, hence the use of plurals on all three, so you could argue that there was as dramatic a ratio as 1/1/7 or any other combination of warriors, kings and sorcerers. It's not conclusive, but it does seem to indicate that the Nine were gathered from various walks of life for different qualities.

Interestingly the verse also throws doubt on the actual wording, the elven rings were only worn by two kings, Gil-Gilad and Celebrimbor though Gil-Gilad wore two of them before handing them onto others (Círdan and Elrond) and Celebrimbor gave his to Galadriel.

The reason I didn't bring up the Three is that they were completely out of Sauron's influence - having never touched them himself, he had no control over their powers or distribution, which is why they are so fundamentally different from the others - he could only influence them when wielding the One, because they were created by the crafts Sauron himself bestowed on Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. Therefore, it's kind of pointless to use the Three as an example in this context, because they can't be construed as relevant in regards to the discussion on distribution by Annatar/Sauron.

[FC Groningen]

Just a question that popped up to me. I also noticed a similar sentiment when I watched the Hobbit and I found it very strange. The Enemy appeared several times in the Third Age; not Sauron himself of course, but his servants made plenty of appearances. As far as I know, southrons and easterlings attacked Gondor several times, the Ringwraiths made frequent appearances like in the destruction of the Northern Kingdoms and the capture of Minas Ithil. I wonder how anyone could say that there was nothing to worry about and that the Sauron was asleep or beaten. Gandalf nearly ran into him when he entered Dol Guldur for the first time. In the movie (yeah I know...) Saruman specifially denied the possibility of the Enemy reappearing and even questioned the appearance of Nazgul while it was perfectly clear where most of them were hiding (Minas Morgul). I also wonder why no one, like the White Counsil, intervened with the siege of Minas Ithil. The siege lasted about 2 years and no one, but Gondor seemed to be bothered by it. I wonder what the White Counsil was doing at this time.

[muller227]

The poem itself is not a good basis for the determination of the title or rank of those who initially received the Rings. Celembrimbor in no place I can remember is refered to as a King and neither for that matter is Cirdan. Nain is a great dwarflord at the time of Thror and they are of the same house of Kings. So while seven houses for seven rings is convenient I don't think it practical given the dwarven histroy I know(which is limited).

Gil-Galad never wore a ring though he did take the two into safekeeping, he had in fact expressly forbid the making of such items. Those who first donned the Rings were of the Gwaith-i- Mirdain, they were the ones who became aware of Sauron. After which Celembrimbor beelined for the lady asking her what to do? At that time she took Nenya, and the other too were sent to Gil-Galad, who kept them safe until he departed for the War of the Last Alliance when he gave them over too his two greatest Lords Elrond and Cirdan.

Nor I think did Sauron give all the Rings too the dwarves, one at least was given directly by Celembrimbor too Durin. As for the destruction by Dragons this actually makes sense as they have been around for around 4500 years prior to the destructiuon of Smaug. It is ffair too say for a good part of ring history we have a fair number of Dragons, who had a shot at them.

Edit:
The white counsel seems to have been a fairly inept organization slow moving, nor do I think do they have any great power left in war. Thranduil's realm is still in recovery at the time of the fall of Minas Ithil, Lothlorien is not a powerful realm militarily nor are the Western Elves militarily powerful enough to assault a great fortress so far from their homes. I cannot remember was the white Counsel around at the time of Arvedui and the fall of Minas Ithil?

[smoesville]

Smoking loads of weed But also there is more evil in ME than just Sauron and the return of his servant doesn't really mean the return of the man himself.

[Ngugi]

Well, it should be noted Sauron actually spent much of his time during the Third Age in the East and thus as easily could got it from one of the four houses in the East.

The poety of the Rings is a bad source of course, as it has not a historical but cultural creation, from after Sauron had captured and handed the Rings out.
On the more solid side we have that the Dwarven Ring-wearers are more often not said to been given to kings but lords, however the fact that it's mentioned once in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age made me unsure if the comments in LotR could be taken as tradition rather than fact.
On the other hand also in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age they are refered to only in connection to the Seven Hoards, and those just as well might be all legend as well, since they are never confirmed - how would that be known for sure, if the other four were in the far east?

@ FC
The Nazgûl perhaps was not known to die when the Ring end, just as the 3 were not known to stop 'working' when the One .
But non the less the Easterlings and Haradrim did not need Sauron to fight against Gondor. They had their own greed or wish for freedom (Gondorian colonizers, shame on you ) to encourage that.
For example;

More ominous were rumours from the further East: the Wild Men were restless. Former servants and worshippers of Sauron, they were released now from his tyranny, but not from the evil and darkness that he had set in their hearts. Cruel wars raged among them, from which some were withdrawing westward, with minds filled with hatred, regarding all that dwelt in the West as enemies to be slain and plundered.
- UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Orcs and other also raged on even without a Dark Lord, they just become organized that way

[Gr1m_4c3]

Ngugi, I think you answered your own question regarding the credibility of the Seven Hoards if some were in the Far East with the example you gave regarding rumours of restlessness - If the eastern Dwarves held such legendary riches, then by the same means we hear about rumours in the Far East, the same legends of Dwarven wealth would have reached the West. There's obviously some passage of information, albeit limited, with the regions beyond the mapped areas of Middle Earth, and rumours of incredible wealth are kind of inherently worthy of widespread gossip.

EDIT: Muller, do you have a source for Nain having one of the rings? It's past midnight and for the life of me I can't recall off the top of my head ever reading that.

Also, in regards to Celebrimbor, I think there's a conflict with that passage from Sil and the Appendices of LOTR - something about Celebrimbor giving up the Seven to Sauron while being tortured?

Though for the life of me I have no idea where my ROTK book is, so I can't source a direct quote on that, but I'd imagine the canon of the appendices takes precedent over the Sil in this instance.

EDIT 2: Scratch my remark regarding Celebrimbor - only relevant example of his dying doesn't mention the Seven at all, and I found a passage regarding the close friendship between the Dwarves and the Elven-smiths, but still no mention of them giving Durin his ring directly.

[FC Groningen]

Smoking loads of weed But also there is more evil in ME than just Sauron and the return of his servant doesn't really mean the return of the man himself.

I can get that, including that the southrons and easterlings didn't need much of an excuse to fight Gondor. Yet, I think it's a different situation regarding the Nazgul as it is clearly stated that these guys rise and fall with their master as their fate is bound to the One Ring. It is also assumed here that Sauron kept the 9 rings himself at all times, instead of being carried by the Nazgul. That should also indicate that Sauron would have these 9 somewhere in his possession. Including all events that took place in the 3rd age, you'd say people were able to put 1 and 1 together or at least suspect it.

About the military possibilities; Remember that the White Counsil managed to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur when it was too late. Sauron indeed prepared for the move and fled, but it didn't come automatically. I believe Gandalf stated in 1 of the books that it was particulary because of Saruman and his powers that Sauron was driven away.

Also note that the people were expecting or were fearing the return of Sauron. The Towers of Teeth and Cirith Ungol for example were built to prevent the enemy from returning to Mordor. So in other words, the return of Sauron was expected, but the moment signs arose, nothing was done against it.


edit: Even if all these events didn't provide proof of direct involvement of Sauron, wouldn't it be very stupid to just leave it that way? You take a very big and unnecessary risk by not investigating any further and I personally think it's partially (or perhaps more) because of this, Sauron could become as strong as he was at the start of the Lord of the Rings triology.

[Gr1m_4c3]

IIRC, Saruman was a major thorn in the side of the White Council by then, and encouraged inaction on a lot of things, often arguing with Gandalf simply because Gandalf supported the idea. He was growing increasingly petty even then. The other members of the White Council were Elves as well, and Elves in the Third Age are notorious for being slow to act on anything, and especially wary of military conflicts that could shorten their time in Middle Earth. Their immortality was definately beginning to make them fearful of dying and going to the Halls of Mandos.

[muller227]

Ngugi, I think you answered your own question regarding the credibility of the Seven Hoards if some were in the Far East with the example you gave regarding rumours of restlessness - If the eastern Dwarves held such legendary riches, then by the same means we hear about rumours in the Far East, the same legends of Dwarven wealth would have reached the West. There's obviously some passage of information, albeit limited, with the regions beyond the mapped areas of Middle Earth, and rumours of incredible wealth are kind of inherently worthy of widespread gossip.

EDIT: Muller, do you have a source for Nain having one of the rings? It's past midnight and for the life of me I can't recall off the top of my head ever reading that.

Also, in regards to Celebrimbor, I think there's a conflict with that passage from Sil and the Appendices of LOTR - something about Celebrimbor giving up the Seven to Sauron while being tortured?

Though for the life of me I have no idea where my ROTK book is, so I can't source a direct quote on that, but I'd imagine the canon of the appendices takes precedent over the Sil in this instance.

EDIT 2: Scratch my remark regarding Celebrimbor - only relevant example of his dying doesn't mention the Seven at all, and I found a passage regarding the close friendship between the Dwarves and the Elven-smiths, but still no mention of them giving Durin his ring directly.

I never meant for it too be understood that Nain had a ring, he point in fact did not have one which is why the Dwarves of the Iron Hills probably faired better than most other Dwarves. Those seven rings could not dominate a dwarf or fade them but they were undoubtedly bad, bad Karma. I pointed out that Nain was a great dwarf lord of the house of Durin. If he exists in and of himself then other great dwarflords logically can exist in attachment to other Kings houses. The seven therefore need not necessarily be given too Dwarven Kings only. No you are correct Nain never held a ring. It is in UT btw the Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn that it is mentioned that Durin III directly receives ring from Celembrimbor.Pg 238 in my copy

[Ngugi]

@FC etc
Fearing is one thing, knowing is another.
Not even people with real foresight, like Elrond, did know more than it was a possibilty that Sauorn would return.

And the Nazgûl would not need Sauron to be around and doing things, as far as anyone knew, just that the One was not destoyed which the Wise knew It was not.

Edit: Example on expections on Nazgûl capacity on their own, perception of Sauron's return and the Council's inactivity:

(...)
Now the Shadow grew ever greater, and the hearts of Elrond and Mithrandir darkened. Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorcerer, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:
‘True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.’
And Elrond answered: ‘In the hour that Isildur took the Ring and would not surrender it, this doom was wrought, that Sauron should return.’
‘Yet the One was lost,' said Mithrandir, ‘and while it still lies hid, we can master the Enemy, if we gather our strength and tarry not too long.'
Then the White Council was summoned; and Mithrandir urged them to swift deeds, but Curunír spoke against him, and counselled them to wait yet and to watch.
(...)
- Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[FC Groningen]

Alright then. Let's label it as irresponsible behaviour from the White Counsil then as a whole. Guess Sauron had to sing Back in Black from the top of Dol Guldur before the Counsil would deem it enough.

[Gr1m_4c3]

I never meant for it too be understood that Nain had a ring, he point in fact did not have one which is why the Dwarves of the Iron Hills probably faired better than most other Dwarves. Those seven rings could not dominate a dwarf or fade them but they were undoubtedly bad, bad Karma. I pointed out that Nain was a great dwarf lord of the house of Durin. If he exists in and of himself then other great dwarflords logically can exist in attachment to other Kings houses. The seven therefore need not necessarily be given too Dwarven Kings only. No you are correct Nain never held a ring. It is in UT btw the Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn that it is mentioned that Durin III directly receives ring from Celembrimbor.Pg 238 in my copy

Alright, had to flick between that chapter and the appendices t get a clearer idea of what exactly happened re: Celebrimbor and the Seven, but the important line is this:

But the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven where bestowed.

Then there's a commentary that calls back to Appendix A of LOTR, Section III 'Of Durin's folk' regarding the legend that Durin's ring was the first of the Seven and bestowed to him by Celebrimbor himself.

So, yes, this is a long-winded way of me saying you were right.

[smoesville]

I may be wrong but i don't think the Nazgul (how do you write that accent, it drives me nuts ) showed themselves openly as such, as in no one who saw them would have known them to be the Ringwraiths.

Guess Sauron had to sing Back in Black from the top of Dol Guldur before the Counsil would deem it enough.

Yes that is a crime worthy of retribution alright

[Ngugi]

@ muller
The issue are the 2 comments in FotR and one in OtRoPatTA that say they belonged to kings.

@ smoesville
Nazgûl is AFAIK both singular and plural.

But they were quite open, the Witch-king was at end known to be a Nazgûl and all attacked Minas Morgul not much later.

[muller227]

I had too look it up in the appendices, the White Counsel was not formed until 2463, well after the fall of Minas Ithil, 3 years after the return of Sauron too Dol Guldur. Though he did not return openly he seems to have returned in fairly great power. The counsel seems to have followed the policy of containment in the North.

Elves it should be noted only marched openly too war twice in the entire third age prior too the Battle of Five Armies, which seems to be Thranduil's first foray since the the Last Alliance. In 1409 after the Defeat of Arthedain on the Weathertop line. Lindon marched to the aid of the Dunedain and helped repel the assault on the Downs. Rivendell aided by Lorien then drove Angmar back for a time.

The assault in 1974 from Angmar was massive and it would seem fairly sudden, the Dunedain from my reading abandoned the Downs and retreated across the Lune while a select few under Arvedui held out upon the Downs delaying Angmar. This is recalls the deeds of Barahir in Dorthonion and his companions. The Dunedain of the North then marched in the war that destroyed Angmar under the Banner of Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon. Glorfindel also led a force out of Rivendell, a force of Cavalry is directly referred too at a tactical moment, in confronting the assault of the Witch King but this by no means limits the Elves of Rivendell too only that particular unit, I think this would have to rely upon an individuals perception of those events.

Edit:
I am following you now, the difference between Lord and King is difficult when it comes to dwarves. The Lord of Nogrod slain by Beren is undoubtedly the King of that house of Dwarves but he is nowhere referred too as king. Azaghal is also referred too as the Lord of Belegost, yet he seems to be the King of that house. This is difficult to reconcile unless of course the seven elder lines remain intact some weaker some greater. The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod made their way too Khazad-Dum and their Kings Lines may have been subservient to the Line of Durin, but given the nature of Dwarves I doubt they would have forgotten their origins, or their folk would not have taken them as their primary lord, even though they dwelt in the house of another King.

The kings of those two houses may have been vassal kings whose folk were granted a place in Kahazad-Dum. Vassal Kings they may have been but Kings nonetheless.

[crawfs]

Alright then. Let's label it as irresponsible behaviour from the White Counsil then as a whole. Guess Sauron had to sing Back in Black from the top of Dol Guldur before the Counsil would deem it enough.

We could write a whole separate book on the irresponsible behavior of the white council

[smoesville]

Nazgûl is AFAIK both singular and plural.

Sorry i meant the accent over the u, what key combination do you use to type it?

[Ngugi]

Dunno how your keyboard looks but I use Shift + the key that has ¨^~ and then u

[smoesville]

Aha! it's alt+6 and then press 'u'. Stupid macs making things different for no real reason

@muller227
That makes sense in a way but i reckon that Tolkien's view on inheritance and genealogy makes me think that the lines of those houses was broken, although Thorin's example may be the way to consider this. He was not called king until he ruled so perhaps the other houses still have a 'king' but because they hold no kingdom they are not called such but they wield power as leader of the house. Thorin did not command any troops but he asks Dáin to come to his aid and he did. It also occurs to me that if Sauron wanted to sow dissent in Khazad Dûm he would have given the rings to those uncrowned kings.

Looking at DCI:LA i noticed that Ngugi had quoted from App. B which may point to another thesis. It says 'Many' of the dwarves from Ered Luin moved to Khazad Dûm, not 'all'. It seems to me that the pride of the dwarves would possibly preclude a king from living under another's roof, Thorin worked as a merchant and blacksmith wandering Eriador rather than go to his kin in the East where they were doing well (not much gold but they were making a proper home). I can imagine the other kings doing similar things until a point when they died alone or were killed by servants of the Enemy and their rings were brought back to Sauron.

ca 40 Many dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.