Tolkien General Discussion II

[alreadyded]

How would Galadriel be able to kill a Balrog exactly? Her ring is not weapon, she says so herself, so I don't see how it is "out of the question" that a Balrog could kill her in a one on one or that she herself could personally harm it even with an army at her back. How exactly does she defend and attack with a Balrog?

Gandalf had the "ring of fire" and he pretty much died fighting the Balrog (he would have if an eagle didn't scoop him off the mountain afterwards). I am guessing Galadriel's ring would not give as much of an advantage (if any) as Gandalf's did do to the whole "flame of Udûn" thing, which cannot be mere coincidence. I am guessing that without the fire ring Gandalf would have got burned... pun slightly intended. He even says he is "a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor... The dark fire will not avail you..." while squaring off against the Balrog so that kinda sticks out as the ring to me. I always assumed that was why it is mentioned that he even has it, well that and I suppose it is the reason he is always wondering around instead of settling somewhere like Saruman and Radagast, I think I read that somehwere. It plays no other part in the story.

Even if you discount everything I stated above, Gandalf is still more powerful than Galadriel by far. Sure she is superior to a human and just as capable or more as most Elves (Tolkien states but never backs it up with anything she actually did to prove she actually is as capable or more and not just potentially), but Gandalf is like a demi-god as is the Balrog.


Edit: Here is the quote, though everyone probably already knows it as it is even in the movie if I remember correctly.

“You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.”

As to why the Balrog did not come out of Moria... because Tolkien did not want it to, simple as that. I don't think any valid reason is given for it to stay down there by Tolkien, only the reason why it went there in the first place. Tolkien hints that it may have been trapped or sleeping before being released or wakened, but no reason why it stuck around after that for so long (hundreds of years).

[Macilrille]

Galadriel is the equal of Feanör, greatest of all Elves.

I would say she would have the same power of keeping evil and unwanted things out as her mentor, Melian, if to a lesser degree. So whether or not she could kill the Valarauko would not be relevant, for it would not get in. But I suspect she would have others do the killing for her, while she would misdirect it, becuile it, etc.

[alreadyded]

Again though, the Balrogs are Maiar (as was Melian so Galadriel did not have the same power, nor is it mentioned anywhere that she did), they began before the world was even made, they are demi-gods for all intensive purposes. If Gandalf, an equal or at least close, couldn't misdirect it, beguile it, etc. then how does Galadriel stand a chance? I just don't get it. Sure she can stop a crap load of Orcs from invading but a demi-god + a crap load of Orcs? I don't know about that. I see nothing in the text that supports she had so much power in such things. Even as an equal to Feanor (who was killed by a demi-god) wouldn't she meet the same fate as him if she challenged one?

Edit: The Valar (through a herald) also tell Feanor (and his followers) that they have no chance of winning. Why would they do that if Feanor was capable of actually defeating a demi-god? Just thought I should tack that on as I feel it relates.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I see nothing in the text that supports she had so much power in such things. Even as an equal to Feanor (who was killed by a demi-god) wouldn't she meet the same fate as him if she challenged one?

Feanor fought every Balrog including Gothmog alone. Galadriel can certainly handle one measly Balrog.

demi-god

As a sidenote, why does everyone use that word when referring to Maiar? A demi-god isn't someone who has near-godlike power (Although the two are not mutually exclusive). A demi-god is someone who is part god.

[athanaric]

As a sidenote, why does everyone use that word when referring to Maiar? A demi-god isn't someone who has near-godlike power (Although the two are not mutually exclusive). A demi-god is someone who is part god.

Good point, "fallen angel" would be more appropriate here.

[alreadyded]

Feanor fought every Balrog including Gothmog alone. Galadriel can certainly handle one measly Balrog.



As a sidenote, why does everyone use that word when referring to Maiar? A demi-god isn't someone who has near-godlike power (Although the two are not mutually exclusive). A demi-god is someone who is part god.

Feanor was ambushed by Balrogs and they would have killed him if Elves had not come to his aid and driven them off. Even so Feanor still dies of his wounds from fighting Gothmog and all of the Balrogs survive from what I remember, they are just driven off (or maybe retreated willingly) after they deliver fatal blows to Feanor. So this does not support Galadriel handling "one measly Balrog."

Demi has two meanings; one means half, the other means partially in an inferior degree. So according to the latter definition I think demi-god is fairly accurate since they were not part of Arda but helped make it. Maybe angel works better, I don't know, Satan was an angel and he competes with God in all that religious babel so there doesn't seem to be much difference to me or if there is than angels are more powerful as no Maia or Valar can compete with Eru. Either way, my point is they were above Elves. Glorfindel didn't actually even kill a Balrog, the Balrog fell off a cliff and took Glorfindel. I don't think it actually says the Balrog even died, it just says Glorfindel's dead body was recovered by Thorondor.

[Veteraan]

The only power that could defeat Galadriel in Lorien would be The dark Lord himself. So that is out of the question- even if she was not a Glorfindel.

Tolkien didn't elaborate on how this was achieved, only that there was a "power".

From Appendix B to the LOTR:
Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

I would agree that the source of the power is most likely Galadriel. Here is a Link where I got the quote (very handy, didn't need to get the book and write it all down myself). It's a discussion on this very subject.

Edit: The Valar (through a herald) also tell Feanor (and his followers) that they have no chance of winning. Why would they do that if Feanor was capable of actually defeating a demi-god? Just thought I should tack that on as I feel it relates.

At that time, they had to deal with Morgoth, a being of a totally different order than any "demi-god".

Galadriel is the equal of Feanör, greatest of all Elves..

Never came across this before, or perhaps I forgot. Can you provide a reference for this?

On a side note: where is our Swedish friend when we need him?
Usually he appears like a flash when this kind of debating is going on.

[Ngugi]

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.
- Appendix B


That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to [the Witch-King] not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien.
- UT; The Hunt for the Ring


The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.
- concerning that the Three Rings granted no new powers to fight with, but only increased what the weilder already was capable of, Letter 131


...for Galadriel also was gone and Lorien was withering.
- about Arwen in the Fourth Age, HoME 12


(...) Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. ... she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.
- UT; History of Celeborn and Galadriel


These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.
- Fëanor and Galadriel, HoME 12

[Infidel144]

Gandalf had the "ring of fire" and he pretty much died fighting the Balrog (he would have if an eagle didn't scoop him off the mountain afterwards).

Actually Gandalf did die, literally. Thorondor came and rescued him only after Gandalf sent back or 're-incarnated'.

Galadriel is the equal of Feanör, greatest of all Elves.

Luthien is the greatest...

[alreadyded]

At that time, they had to deal with Morgoth, a being of a totally different order than any "demi-god".

A valid point that I thought of myself, however Morgoth was already weakened from pouring his energy/soul/power/whatever into making the Orcs, other creatures, and probably Utumno, Angband, Thangorodrim, etc. as well. So he wasn't as powerful as he once was by this time since he had and still was spending much of himself to "create" his own world, but I can't remember exactly how Tolkien describes this or just how weakened so that is a matter for a different discussion that I will need to do some reading up on before I could do a proper discussion about.

Actually Gandalf did die, literally. Thorondor came and rescued him only after Gandalf sent back or 're-incarnated'.

Luthien is the greatest...

I am pretty sure Gandalf's body doesn't actually die as he talks to Gwaihir while he is being picked up and while being carried and asks the eagle to take him to Lothlorien. I'll let someone else find that quote, I need to smoke! It certainly can be interpreted that his body died and was resurrected, though I would imagine he would have resurrected elsewhere, and not instantly, and with a new body as when his mortal flesh dies his spirit would endure and (I assume) return to Valinor.

I do agree that Luthien is the greatest when it comes to misdirection and beguiling. Plus she was actually a blood relation to a maiar so that means power! Because of this she isn't really Elvish though, more of a super hybrid Elven Maiar.



@Ngugi

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.
- Appendix B

From this I gather that all we need to do is decide whether the Balrogs were at least equal in power to Sauron, from what I have read, both of them being Maiar, it seems so. What do you think?

[Cyclops]

...From this I gather that all we need to do is decide whether the Balrogs were at least equal in power to Sauron, from what I have read, both of them being Maiar, it seems so. What do you think?

Of course we need to be specific: which Sauron? The mole in Almaren? The repairer of Angband? The creepy werewolf keeper lurking in the first Minas Tirith? Annatar the gift giver? Sauron the Ringmaker? Sauron the defeated shadow (vers. 1 &2?).

Sauron is mentioned as chief of Melkor's spies in Almaren, suggesting he was at least politically supreme, and his later attested charm may have served him in this role. Was he powerfulk as well as convincing and handy? Got beat on a mountainside by two men and an elf..albeit after putting his mojo into the Ring, but he was wearing the ring...

I suspect he was not a Gothmog the first type combat model fallen Maia. I think he was a wily political monster twisting minds and making awesome stuff. That way he'd win fights because he could get his opponents to destroy themselves (Numenor, Arnor), or get slaves to do it (Arthedain, Cardolan).

That said he was a pretty formidible one-on one, but not invincible. He fell on Orodruin, fingers snipped, and surrendered to Ar Pharazon. After the Ring went up the creek, Sauron doesn't seem to even appear to anyne except slaves locked in dungeons, so he's probably physically weakened to a greater degree than ever before.

So I suspect a standard issue Balrog would stand a chance one-on-one vs full strength First Age and perhaps even Ring-Buffed Second Age Sauron (and definitely weak-arse post-Ring Third Age Sauron): he wasn't renowned for frontline biffo even at his best. Its just the standard issue Balrog probably would be dead before he made it to the match.

[Infidel144]

I am pretty sure Gandalf's body doesn't actually die as he talks to Thorondor while he is being picked up and while being carried and asks the eagle to take him to Lothlorien. I'll let someone else find that quote, I need to smoke! It certainly can be interpreted that his body died and was resurrected, though I would imagine he would have resurrected elsewhere, and not instantly, and with a new body.

No, his body was literally dead. Gwaihir (I don't know why I said Thorondor, I meant Gwaihir) retrieved Gandalf only after his spirit had been sent back to his body by God.
Nor was it instantaneous. The body was dead from Jan 25 until Feb 14 ("Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and wandered far on roads I will not tell."). Eru the sent him back to his body and he lay in a trance ("Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.). It was on Feb 17 that Gwaihir took Gandalf to Lorien. See TT, The White Rider, and Appendix B Tale of Years (key quotes for Jan. 25: "He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak." and Feb 14: "Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.").
Also from the Voice of Saruman:
"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council."
Or Letter 156:
"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'."

[alreadyded]

"Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."
- Appendix B

Well this quote refers to Sauron while he does not currently posses the Ring I assume, as these events took place right before the Ring was destroyed.

While I agree with what you wrote above Sauron was able to change his form just like all the other Maiar, as well as the Balrogs, so depending on what form he choose (maybe even the same as a Balrog?) he might be good for some front line fighting. But ya he is tricksy in how he deals with Numenor and many other things.


This brings up another question; How does Sauron get defeated when he has the Ring? Tolkien never states how Gil-Galad and Elendil actually defeat Sauron, just that Gil-Galad and Elendil die in doing so and Isildur takes the Ring afterwards. I assume Tolkien didn't want to go into detail on this as any details would probably be quite silly and rather contradicting.



Edit:

No, his body was literally dead. Gwaihir (I don't know why I said Thorondor, I meant Gwaihir) retrieved Gandalf only after his spirit had been sent back to his body by God.
Nor was it instantaneous. The body was dead from Jan 25 until Feb 14 ("Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and wandered far on roads I will not tell."). Eru the sent him back to his body and he lay in a trance ("Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.). It was on Feb 17 that Gwaihir took Gandalf to Lorien. See TT, The White Rider, and Appendix B Tale of Years (key quotes for Jan. 25: "He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak." and Feb 14: "Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.").
Also from the Voice of Saruman:
"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council."
Or Letter 156:
"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'."

Well this seems to contradict how Tolkien depicts Saruman's death. His soul leaves the mortal body (which shrivels to skin and bones or something like that) and is supposed to go to Mandos, but is rejected. From this and a few other things I remember reading on the matter, Gandalf's case is unique if he did actually die and his body was kept intact, and his spirit did not return to Mandos but was just put back in the same body made anew. It just doesn't fit for me. For this reason I assumed it was just an "out of body experience." For example I say this "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and wandered far on roads I will not tell" every time I get high.

[Cyclops]

...
Well this seems to contradict how Tolkien depicts Saruman's death. His soul leaves the mortal body (which shrivels to skin and bones or something like that) and is supposed to go to Mandos, but is rejected. From this and a few other things I remember reading on the matter, Gandalf's case is unique if he did actually die and his body was kept intact, and his spirit did not return to Mandos but was just put back in the same body made anew. It just doesn't fit for me. For this reason I assumed it was just an "out of body experience." For example I say this "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and wandered far on roads I will not tell" every time I get high.

But when Gandalf comes back his body is naked, so who knows what happened while he was gone.

"I taste lipstick...am I wearing lipstick?" "Not anymore".

I also read Gandalf's "death" as an out-of-body experience but re-reading does suggest he was dead, gone, and may even have come back to a new body.

[Ngugi]

From this I gather that all we need to do is decide whether the Balrogs were at least equal in power to Sauron, from what I have read, both of them being Maiar, it seems so. What do you think?

'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'- FotR; The Mirror of Galadriel


Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.
- Valaquenta [published Silmarillion]


(...) before the fall of Utumno, Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs.
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed

Further we have Gandalf who as Grey could kill the Balrog but still as White refere to himself as inferior to Sauron.
As brought up though, Sauron in difference to the Balrogs is a sorcerer, craftman and cunning lord, while the Balrogs operate as muscles, making the compairison a bit grey scaled. Thus saying if I had to pick an enemy I rather have a Balrog, until it become a matter of an up and personal fight, then in a melee I rather fight Sauron.

Well this quote refers to Sauron while he does not currently posses the Ring I assume, as these events took place right before the Ring was destroyed.

Yes

Of course we need to be specific: which Sauron? The mole in Almaren? The repairer of Angband? The creepy werewolf keeper lurking in the first Minas Tirith? Annatar the gift giver? Sauron the Ringmaker? Sauron the defeated shadow
- Cyclops

While I agree with what you wrote above Sauron was able to change his form just like all the other Maiar, as well as the Balrogs, so depending on what form he choose (maybe even the same as a Balrog?) he might be good for some front line fighting. But ya he is tricksy in how he deals with Numenor and many other things.
- alreadyded

From the end of the Second Age and foreward Sauron could not change shape at will, in line with how it goes for Dark Lords btw as a result of their evil ways, nor shall we assume the Balrog would or could any longer;

There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.
... Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.
- published Silmarillion, chapter 8


but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically...
- about Ainur, or at least Maiar, taking bodies, HoME 10; Myths Transformed

This brings up another question; How does Sauron get defeated when he has the Ring? Tolkien never states how Gil-Galad and Elendil actually defeat Sauron, just that Gil-Galad and Elendil die in doing so and Isildur takes the Ring afterwards. I assume Tolkien didn't want to go into detail on this as any details would probably be quite silly and rather contradicting.

You use the fact that he's not a master of a melee fighting, nor does the One work like anabolic steroids (whatever the movie image that comes to mind), and you punch him in the face till he drops:

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Sauron was driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford (the crossing of the Baranduin); and though strengthened by his force at Tharbad he suddenly found a host of the Númenóreans again in his rear (...) In the Battle of the Gwathló Sauron was routed utterly and he himself only narrowly escaped. His small remaining force was assailed in the east of Calenardhon, and he with no more than a bodyguard fled to the region afterwards called Dagorlad (Battle Plain), whence broken and humiliated he returned to Mordor, and vowed vengeance upon Númenor.
- about The war of the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age, UT; History of Celeborn and Galadriel

[Flinn]

good morning guys, glad to see so many lore fans

it's hard to recollect all that has been wrote during the last two days, but anyway I'll try to give my contribution by adding the following ideas:

- about Durin's Bane: we should keep in mind that Balrogs are servants of Melkor himself and not of Sauron; they had their own leader and altought they surely cooperated here and there with Sauron when Melkor was still on, they never put themselves under his direct control. Balrogs, despite their phisical power, were not "officers" but "troops", so not the kind of evil beeing able to group up other bad guys and form their own army; furthermore, it is specifically stated that after the defeat of Melkor the remaining Balrogs hid in the dark places waiting for the return of their master, so IMO the fact that Durin's Bane wanted to remain into Moria, were he was "safe" and were he could hid in the deep (don't forget the account of Gandalf fighting the Balrog, when he said that he PURSUED it when it actually fled into the forgotten tunnels under the mountain) perfectly fits into this logic. Evil is usually egoistic, so no wonder the Balrog tought of its survival before of anything else.
I suppose that when the Uruks poped up in Moria the Balrog simply considered them as a sort of gift Sauron sent to please it, but I doubt it actually ruled them; the Orcs came to Moria to pillage it and recover as much Mithril as possible to give it to Sauron and then remained there to guard the pass under the mountain and to make the place a sort of outpost for their soldiers, much in the style of the orcs.
Finally, at the battle of Azanulimbar the Balrog did not showed at all, this is, I believe, significative of what was its general behaviuor.

- about Gandalf's death: though death is not the correct word I believe (speaking about a Maya), I'm pretty sure that during the battle with the Balrog his phisical body was utterly damaged and that the Valar gifted him with more knowledge and prevented his spirit to leave his body; though I can't think of a reason, I do believe that the fact that his body has become so light (a feather Gwaihir said) has to do with a new state of existance he was granted by the Valar in order to complete his task (though this is purely fictional from my side).

- about the power of the Mayar and of the Elves: though the Mayar were all of the same order, it is not implied that they had all the same power, I belive it is the contrary in fact (it is clearly stated for the Valar, so why not for the Mayar?) and thus it is of little sense to state that a Maya is always more powerful than a Son of Illuvatar; furthermore, power comes in many forms, not all of them are offensive or military let's say: Melian "defensive" power, for instance, was so great that it could keep away any enemy, while Gandalf real power was knowledge and understanding (his offensive and defensive powers came from the Ring of Fire and Glamdring that he coveniently found/was gifted) and with this power he percieved the only weak point of Sauron and used it to plot a plan to utterly destroy him once and for all.
On the other hand, it is said that those Elves that saw the lights of the Trees in Aman were sensibly more powerful than the "normal" ones; furthermore, many of them were armed with weapons and knowledge coming from the Valar themselves, so both those facts should be weighted when evaluating who's on the top of who

[Thangaror]

If Gandalf, an equal or at least close, couldn't misdirect it, beguile it, etc. then how does Galadriel stand a chance?

I think you're vastly over-estimating Gandalf's power, just because he was a Maia. This doesn't mean much. Fingolfin never stood a chance against Morgoth, but nevertheless he put up quite a fight. Finrod proofed to be a challenge for Sauron. Gil-galad and Elendil defeated him. By Lúthien he was made a fool. What could Melian have done in her stead? Given that Sauron was already one of the mightiest Maiar, there have to be many, many Maiar which are much less powerful than him, or Melian, or Saruman.

The Istari's power had been significantly reduced when they were sent to Middle-earth. Gandalf was unable to defeat the Nazgûl on Weathertop, and he continued to fear the Witchking. Even Saruman considered the Nazgûl quite dangerous.
The Balrog was as powerful as ever, and Galadriel was incredibly powerful, and strengthened in some way by Nenya. Gandalf defeated the Balrog, but so did Glorfindel, who certainly is less powerful than Galadriel. So yes, I think Galadriel could've kicked the Balrog's butt (maybe not kill him, but certainly drive him off).

[knight of meh]

so you attribute galadriels edge to nenya , how then do you explain gandalf being weaker when he possessed narya the ring of fire?

also the nine where scary because they where wraiths no one could kill them unless they broke saurons power (the storyline killing of the witchking excluded)

furthermore it was said somewhere (can't quote right now in uni -.- ) that the elves of the first age where more powerful so you can't use them as a measuring stick

also gandalf and glorfindel died fighting there respective balrogs .. and if galadriel could have driven off the balrog don't you think she would have done it already? not the kind of thing you want near your house/forest

[Duke of Metz]

Can one of our Loremasters point me to where I can find where Galadriel is the equal to Feanor? I'm looking at "Of the Sun and Moon" in the Sil and it seems clear to me that Feanor is the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar:

"For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive."

Edit: guess I should've paid more attention to the ferret, but the wall of block quote scared me off.

[Macilrille]

If you scroll up a bit, Ngugi has provided the quotes.

You can also just trust me, I very rarely claim anything that I cannot support with those selfsame quotes.