Tolkien General Discussion II

[Hresvelgr]

Wasn't gnome simply what Tolkien originally called the Noldor? Also, IIRC Trotter didn't have wooden shoes, he had wooden feet since Sauron or some orcs sawed off his original feet. I mean talk about grim...

[Mhaedros]

Gnomes was another word for the Noldor, at least that's how I understood it when I read the Books of Lost Tales.

Ninjad

[Þiudreiks]

Wasn't gnome simply what Tolkien originally called the Noldor? Also, IIRC Trotter didn't have wooden shoes, he had wooden feet since Sauron or some orcs sawed off his original feet. I mean talk about grim...

I had forgotten that it was revealed later that he had actual wooden feet. It has been a long time sense I read the earlier versions and unfortunately I don't own the books myself, I had read a friends copy years ago and never got around to buying them myself. One of those things on my list to buy that the money went to other hobbies instead.

Gnomes was another word for the Noldor, at least that's how I understood it when I read the Books of Lost Tales.

Ninjad

That is the way I understood it as well.

[alreadyded]

Exactly this.



Tolkien never wrote anything about dwarves having catapults, nothing about ballistas in mibble earth, but having them on the game does not offend the lore, its natural to have them.
Ive added the grape shot for catapults, do you think this is anti-lore? Of course not.

While camels... wtf...

Arda is our Earth but a long time ago, so ya there were camels. The legendarium I suppose it would be called is in a early medieval setting and historically camels were used in warfare often enough before, during, and after that setting. Camels are also an important livestock, and beast of burden, and also food (tastes like tangy beef, I have had it quite a few times) in arid regions so they should not be removed completely. BUT Tolkien never mentions camels anywhere, or in anyway. So there is no direct quote which forces you to depict them in battle if you don't want to. One of the main reasons camels were even used in battle was because they scare (untrained) horses. A good solid war horse is much more desirable, he will probably kill as many enemies as his rider and also keep the rider alive longer. Camels are kinda like cows... so not as useful at killing on their own. They do like to spit their piss at you though.


Edit: Trotter is a pig's or sheep's foot when being referred to as food, so that makes sense that he lost his feet with a name like that. So very witty Tolkien, you sly bastard.

[Macilrille]

I have fought a knight on a trained warhorse, it is no fun at all- actually it is incredibly fun, but you are ed. It steamrolls you.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I have fought a knight on a trained warhorse, it is no fun at all- actually it is incredibly fun, but you are ed. It steamrolls you.

What was he wearing? I'm just curious.

[Macilrille]

Norman Knight 11th- early 12th century, white Andalusian. Broadsword and kite shield, maille to wrist and knees, helmet, coif. Sometimes overhand spear instead of the broadsword. The horse, Baldur (16 years as a warhorse with this fellow then in 2011) would actively try to topple you, but not injure- and when he succeded (which he did mostly), he would place a hoof on you lightly for a sec, then move away. He was a fantastic horse- and very gentle when not fighting.

[Kiliç Alì]

Uhh... and what were you wearing?

[Macilrille]

On the various occasions, what you see on my thumbnal or that with a knee-lebgth mail shirt with short sleeves over it.

[Khay]

A reflexion i had last night (instead of sleeping, of course my scumbag brain suddnly decides it is the perfect time for middle earth related questions).

What prevented Durin's Bane from allying with Sauron and wreck stuff? From what i remember at the time of FoTR Mordor's Uruks are in Moria and in charge, Sauron would likely know of the Balrog presence, and it seems to me they are the kind of people that might be best friends forever and indulge themselves in an orgy of incineration and other evil pleasures that sort of dudes are into. Do the Balrogs, being Morgoth old allies, despise Sauron as some sort of upstart? Durin's Bane is just of the sulking sort and prefers to stay in his hole? Even if he doesn't want to ally with Sauron, what prevents him from going down to Lorien and enlighten the mood with all those... beautiful.. flammable... full of elves trees? (Admittely he would still have a tough time with Galadriel and Celeborn, but still, i think he'd be powerful enough to cause some mayhem, and probably hate the elves enough to be willing to). To me Durin's Bane staying in Moria is the same level as Glorfindel being very busy doing nothing when he could be a game-changer. And he's probably much less in the mood for lalala-the-elves-are-fading-so-i'll-just-sit-here-while-the-others-are-in-deep-.

I bet the question must have been raised and answered countless times but a forum research with "balrog" brings so many results, and "why is Durin's Bane such a sulking little girl?" brings none.

[Dude with the Food]

I think that Durin's Bane being so powerful and bound only to Morgoth has no real loyalty to Sauron, especially considering Sauron doesn't share power. Look at Smaug too. He doesn't link up with anybody and I doubt he would have moved much even if Sauron had reached him before Bard. They are both important enough for Sauron to leave alone without being contentions to his power (looking at Saruman).

[Macilrille]

The only power that could defeat Galadriel in Lorien would be The dark Lord himself. So that is out of the question- even if she was not a Glorfindel.

As for the alliance between the two... there can be several explanations;
As you say the Valarauko could consider Sauron just an upstart, a servant.
It could also be aware of the fact that such an alliance would see itself as the junior member- in fact a servant itself, and not wish to serve another. Perhaps it was only the presence of the Ring that drew it forth, for with the Ring, what could it not do? Perhaps subdue Sauron and be the master itself...
In the vast reaches of Moria, it was very hard to get to and injure or kill, if it started prancing around... not so much. Perhaps that would even draw Glorfindel or another Elven hero to rouse from their semi-exile and actually do stuff.

[Macilrille]

I think that Durin's Bane being so powerful and bound only to Morgoth has no real loyalty to Sauron, especially considering Sauron doesn't share power. Look at Smaug too. He doesn't link up with anybody and I doubt he would have moved much even if Sauron had reached him before Bard. They are both important enough for Sauron to leave alone without being contentions to his power (looking at Saruman).

you did not read UT I take it?

"Fire and swords in Eriador, no queen for Gondor- if it had not been for that chance meeting one evening in Bree" (quoted from memory).


edit, that looks condescending- I apologise it is not meant as such, but I am too exhausted to think up a more polite way of saying it.

[Dude with the Food]

No offence taken, I've not read UT. Only got part way through the Silmarillion but I recently reread the appendices and reading on this forum makes me feel clever.

I've just also had a thought though, if it wasn't for Galadriel's ring, could she have had the power to stop the Balrog. The Balrog is a maiar after all and without the power of her ring, would Lorien be as safe if he attacked? Similarly, what if Sauron had rampaged on the east side of the Misty Mountains? With the ring, could he have destroyed Lorien/Woodland Realm/various other before Gil-Galad intervened?

[Macilrille]

Yes, but that was not his aim, he aimed at Eregion and Lindon; the major centres of his enemies and where he hoped he would find all other Rings.

It is difficult to say whether she could resist the Valarauko without Nenya, but I think not. I cannot be certain though, for the only power we know of Nenya is the slowing of time.

[Khay]

The only power that could defeat Galadriel in Lorien would be The dark Lord himself. So that is out of the question- even if she was not a Glorfindel.

Agreed. However, I was thinking the balrog could be perfectly willing to give it a try, and would probably make a hell of a rampage before being forced to retreat, and no matter how mighty Galadriel is, would she be able to kill him? And then again Durin's Bane could perfectly go elsewhere, Lorien is merely the closest, most obvious traget.

Perhaps that would even draw Glorfindel or another Elven hero to rouse from their semi-exile and actually do stuff.

Time for some fanfiction writing (kidding, i suck at writing)

Thanks for the answers gents.

[Þiudreiks]

Why do people always forget that Celeborn is a Teleri Elflord and named Kinsman to Thingol in several of the versions, Galadriel isn't the only power residing there. She might be the pre-eminent power but he should not be discounted so easily.

Also keep in mind that the 3 rings of power are unique and not like the 7 and 9:

But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

[Mhaedros]

Actually it's not certain who Celeborn is, there are at least three theories about his background.

[Þiudreiks]

Actually it's not certain who Celeborn is, there are at least three theories about his background.

That is why I put that statement saying in several of the versions. His story is convoluted as it is told through the multiple versions of Galadriel. Both he and his wife are unfortunately another casualty of Tolkiens death and him not being able to create a clear version of their history.

In both Appendix B and the Silmarillion he is mentioned as being kin to Thingol. In Lord of the Rings itself it is mentioned that Galadriel met him when she entered what would be the Green Wood, and according to the unfinished tales: "In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuivienen). Also in the Road Goes Ever On: "[Galadriel] passes over the Moutains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."

I would also like to add that in it pretty consistent through most of the version that he is an Elf of the Teleri in some form or another with one of the later version being that he was a Teleri who followed Olwë (brother and king of Thingol), and left with Galadriel from Valinor after Feanor's rebellion.

He might not be on par with the Feanorians but I'm not saying he could fell Morgoth here. And I'm also not saying he wouldn't fight without an army. I just don't think given his age and how he is the Lord of Southern Green Wood should be discounted.

[athanaric]

Agreed. However, I was thinking the balrog could be perfectly willing to give it a try, and would probably make a hell of a rampage before being forced to retreat, and no matter how mighty Galadriel is, would she be able to kill him? And then again Durin's Bane could perfectly go elsewhere, Lorien is merely the closest, most obvious target.

It might be that Durin's Bane was afraid that if he (referring to them as "he", not as "it", is just a personal preference of mine, not backed up by any lore) ventured out in the open, the good guys would become aware of his concrete nature, band together, and try to nuke him somehow. The uncertainty of what actually lurked down in Moria, and the lack of "scouting information" on behalf of the good guys, was probably one of the best weapons at the Balrog's disposal. Being known as "nameless fear" (instead of "fire demon [insert rank here]") means that your enemies are in the dark (ha ha) regarding the best way of dealing with you.

By the way, IIRC Tolkien never really specified what actually killed those balrogs that did perish. Somehow I doubt it was just down to the quality of the weapon wielded, or the fighting skills of the person in question. Was it the spirit, so to speak, of their respective vanquishers? Supernatural things in Tolkien's world are much harder to grasp than elsewhere IMO, because the terminology is so vague.