Tolkien General Discussion II

[Veteraan]

Wasn't Saruman's power in his voice and ability to influence people with his speech?

Yes, even the Witch King wasn't immune to his power. Doing this to Sauron is something else though. At best he managed to mislead him somewhat I think.

Also he could dominate their will utterly, and control them, but this was an obviously consious act and not a default situation with the Orcs of the world.

You would expect him to be quite conscious of Grishnák's and Uglúk's march. That's why I wondered how Saruman/Uglúk almost got away with bringing the possible Ring-bearer to Isengard.

As usual, a great and informative post Ngugi.

Agreed, so great and informative in fact that I read all of it, including the previous page.

[Ngugi]

You would expect him to be quite conscious of Grishnák's and Uglúk's march. That's why I wondered how Saruman/Uglúk almost got away with bringing the possible Ring-bearer to Isengard.

Would say this part explains it:

But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.

Úgluk and the Uruks were not part of Sauron's trained armies. Sauron had never got the chance to get dominion over them.
Looking at Gorbag and Shagrat who clearly have been used to self-rule and work fro Sauron either by volunteering or being drafted they neither are 'mind controlled', mistrusting their bosses and consider to desert, even if at the border of Mordor.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Veteraan]

Would say this part explains it:
Úgluk and the Uruks were not part of Sauron's trained armies. Sauron had never got the chance to get dominion over them.
Looking at Gorbag and Shagrat who clearly have been used to self-rule and work fro Sauron either by volunteering or being drafted they neither are 'mind controlled', mistrusting their bosses and consider to desert, even if at the border of Mordor.

Yes I agree.

To clarify a bit. I would have not have expected Grishnák initially to withdraw and leave the Hobbits to Uglúk. It would also have made sense that Sauron more than once would have phoned the Orthanc Palantir to give Saruman strict orders regarding the Hobbits being sent to Lugbúrz. I would expect through his eye and perhaps his Palantir he would be aware of where the orcs were heading. He also could have sent all the Nazgûl since the ring was the most important thing on his mind.
However luckily Tolkien did not write it that way. It would have meant an abrupt and very unsatisfying end of the story.The books probably wouldn't even have been published.
I don't think there is anyone in this part of the forums who would have wanted to miss the experience of the first time reading LOTR.

ps

Just how many images do you have available to stress your points???

[Þiudreiks]

Yes I agree.

To clarify a bit. I would have not have expected Grishnák initially to withdraw and leave the Hobbits to Uglúk. It would also have made sense that Sauron more than once would have phoned the Orthanc Palantir to give Saruman strict orders regarding the Hobbits being sent to Lugbúrz. I would expect through his eye and perhaps his Palantir he would be aware of where the orcs were heading. He also could have sent all the Nazgûl since the ring was the most important thing on his mind.
However luckily Tolkien did not write it that way. It would have meant an abrupt and very unsatisfying end of the story.The books probably wouldn't even have been published.
I don't think there is anyone in this part of the forums who would have wanted to miss the experience of the first time reading LOTR.

ps

Just how many images do you have available to stress your points???

By this point Saruman had broken contract with Sauron and had driven off a Nazgul if I remember correctly form the Unfinished Tales.

[Veteraan]

By this point Saruman had broken contract with Sauron and had driven off a Nazgul if I remember correctly form the Unfinished Tales.

The Nazgûl was the Witch King. Isengard was to strong for him and his company to assault and Saruman managed to convince him that only Gandalf knew were the ring was to be found. Soon after that the W.K. learned Saruman had betrayed him as he came across Wormtongue in Rohan.
I agree that this would make future contact by palantir between the Two Towers much less likely (except in the movie of course). To me however, it makes it even harder to understand why Sauron (if he thought the ring bearer possibly was in the orc company traveling for Isengard) would not have gone "all the way" in an effort to intercept them. Perhaps Sauron just suffered a little eye malfunction at that time. When he thought Aragorn possessed the ring, he certainly did came in force for it.

[Flinn]

To me however, it makes it even harder to understand why Sauron (if he thought the ring bearer possibly was in the orc company traveling for Isengard) would not have gone "all the way" in an effort to intercept them. Perhaps Sauron just suffered a little eye malfunction at that time.

the point is, was Sauron aware in short that the Ring bearer was captured by the Orcs ? first, he knew it only after some hours had passed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Grishnakh left Mordor on January 18, 3019 of the Third Age, after Sauron learned of the Fellowship's passage through Moria. He crossed the Anduin near Sarn Gebir on January 26 and encountered messengers travelling to Isengard with news of the Fellowship's journey. Grishnakh then returned to the eastern side of the Anduin and reported to one of the Nazgul.
On February 2, Grishnakh received orders to cooperate with the Uruk-hai of Isengard. Grishnakh made contact with Ugluk of Isengard on February 10 north of Sarn Gebir. Grishnakh and his troop of Orcs kept watch on the east bank of the Anduin. On February 22, his scouts reported that the Fellowship was boating downriver.
Grishnakh's Orcs were joined by a Nazgul. On February 23, they attacked the Fellowship as their boats were driven toward the eastern shore by the rapids of Sarn Gebir. The Fellowship managed to escape to the western shore, and Legolas shot the Fell Beast ridden by the Nazgul.
Grishnakh crossed to the western bank to follow the Fellowship. He met Ugluk and his Uruk-hai in the Emyn Muil on February 25. They found the Fellowship at Amon Hen the next day on February 26. They killed Boromir and captured the Hobbits Merry Brandybuck and Pippin Took.
Grishnakh was suspicious of the Isengarders and their master Saruman. Grishnakh thought the Hobbits should be taken to Mordor and he argued with Ugluk, who cut off the heads of two other Orcs who opposed him. Grishnakh then left the group and met with one of the Nazgul on February 27. The Nazgul instructed Grishnakh to pursue Ugluk and the Hobbits.
Grishnakh set out with a band of Mordor Orcs and rejoined Ugluk and the Uruk-hai on February 28. But later that day, a company of Riders of Rohan led by Eomer caught up with them near Fangorn Forest.

an maybe more time passed, because Grishnak reported to a Nazgul and not to Sauron itself; as long as Sauron realized that the Ring was going to Isengard he sent a Nazgul there, but too late (as the Fellowship and the King of Rohan already left), so time and luck were on the side of the good guys.

Furthermore, Sauron never really believed that a Hobbit could contend his power with the ring, that's why he reacted so quickly (and too early) to Aragorn unspoken challenge with the Palantir, because in his mind Aragorn was the worst enemy (apart from Gandalf maybe, to me it appeared that Sauron never feared Saruman) and the best choice for his enemies to pick to contend his power over the Ring (inheritance was another important issue for Tolkien I believe, just look at the rights on the Palantiri for example, and Aragorn was the heir of the one who cut the ring from him, so ..).

At the same time, if he really tought hobbits capable of using the Ring effectively (apart from becoming invisible) he would have put much much more attention to the hobbit spy when they captured him at Cirith Ungol; at this regard I imagine that he tought it was a sort of diversion, though to ME the presence of Gollum (the orcs knew about him) would have been a seriuos hint about what was really happening.

At any rate, if we keep in mind that for Sauron the simple idea of someone possensing the ring and willingly destroing it was pure madness, it's easier to understand what he did and why.

[Veteraan]

Thank you for that very helpful chronological summary of the events taking place.
Is it possible that Sauron already believed Aragorn was in possesion of the ring during the events at Cirith Ungol? I can't tell off the top of my head, but I suspect you could.

The inheritance business puzzles me a bit. Would this not mean that Frodo would wield a bigger (or should I say less little) power over the ring than Bilbo did? Perhaps Frodo even was a (very) distant relative of Smeagol. Obviously not in a direct line though.

I totally agree that Sauron surely wasn't afraid of a Ring bearing Hobbit and his potential power. We know he also wasn't impressed by Saruman playing his role as a sort of Mini-Me to him.
However I believe he would have been very worried about Saruman obtaining the ring. For despite Saruman joining the "darkside" he was at that time undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings present in ME. Perhaps (I'm totally speculating here) because of his corruption, Saruman would even be more dangerous when in possession of the ring.

[Dude with the Food]

Considering the control Sauron had built up over Saruman all that time, I doubt Saruman could destroy the ring and therefore Sauron wouldn't stop existing. However, I think as a fellow Maiar, only Saruman at this time could contend with Sauron if he had the possibilty of the ring considering how Gandalf reacts when Frodo tries to give it to him.

I doubt Sauron ever thought Aragorn held the ring but it isn't something I'd rule out before someone with more knowledge than me answeres that.

And to Frodo being possibly related to Smeagol, no. Isildur lost the ring in the Gladden Fields. Sometime after that hobbits emerged in the same area. The Harfoots(?) and Fallohides migrated to the Shire (sort of). The Stoor hobbits went to somewhere in Eregion/Rhudaur and then Dunland. After that some went to the Shire but most returned to the Anduin Vale and Gladden Fields they came from. I assume that is where Gollum found the ring rather than in the Shire with the other hobbits Frodo was descended from.

[Flinn]

Is it possible that Sauron already believed Aragorn was in possesion of the ring during the events at Cirith Ungol? I can't tell off the top of my head, but I suspect you could.

indeed, Aragorn declared himself on March 6, 3019, Frodo was held captive from March 13 to March 14, 3019. Also, the death of the the Witch King happened in the morning of the 15th and this surely helped Frodo and Sam during the first hours of their escape from Cirith Ungol.

The inheritance business puzzles me a bit. Would this not mean that Frodo would wield a bigger (or should I say less little) power over the ring than Bilbo did? Perhaps Frodo even was a (very) distant relative of Smeagol. Obviously not in a direct line though.

well this inheritance idea is much a fantasy of mine, so I can't use any source to enforce it; anyway, one thing is to find a treasure (like Gollum and later Bilbo did) by chance, another is to be the heir of the one who defeated the original owner and maker of the treasure itself. For sure, quoting Gandalf words Frodo was somewhat intended to become the Ring bearer (but this has to do with Valar or maybe Eru intervention .. )

I totally agree that Sauron surely wasn't afraid of a Ring bearing Hobbit and his potential power. We know he also wasn't impressed by Saruman playing his role as a sort of Mini-Me to him.
However I believe he would have been very worried about Saruman obtaining the ring. For despite Saruman joining the "darkside" he was at that time undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings present in ME. Perhaps (I'm totally speculating here) because of his corruption, Saruman would even be more dangerous when in possession of the ring.

true, but as Gandalf said even the mightest can't learn to use the full power of the ring in short, and Sauron expected to have some spare time before one of his enemies actually became the "leader" and claimed the ring for himself/herself. Aragorn was the worst possible enemy for Sauron, because he had rights both on the ring and on the kingdom of Gondor, plus he showed him he still had Narsil (reforged) that was the weapon that defeated him and furthermore he also showed him enough power and will to contest his rule over the Palantiri of Orthnac. As legolas said after the victory at the pelennor fields

'Strange indeed'... 'In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him. But nobler is his spirit than the understanding of Sauron; for is he not of the line of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lenghten beyond count.' "

[Þiudreiks]

indeed, Aragorn declared himself on March 6, 3019, Frodo was held captive from March 13 to March 14, 3019. Also, the death of the the Witch King happened in the morning of the 15th and this surely helped Frodo and Sam during the first hours of their escape from Cirith Ungol.




well this inheritance idea is much a fantasy of mine, so I can't use any source to enforce it; anyway, one thing is to find a treasure (like Gollum and later Bilbo did) by chance, another is to be the heir of the one who defeated the original owner and maker of the treasure itself. For sure, quoting Gandalf words Frodo was somewhat intended to become the Ring bearer (but this has to do with Valar or maybe Eru intervention .. )



true, but as Gandalf said even the mightest can't learn to use the full power of the ring in short, and Sauron expected to have some spare time before one of his enemies actually became the "leader" and claimed the ring for himself/herself. Aragorn was the worst possible enemy for Sauron, because he had rights both on the ring and on the kingdom of Gondor, plus he showed him he still had Narsil (reforged) that was the weapon that defeated him and furthermore he also showed him enough power and will to contest his rule over the Palantiri of Orthnac. As legolas said after the victory at the pelennor fields

Also Aragorn was an Elf-friend and Dwarf-friend as well and Sauron still feared the power of the Elfs. Isn't there also a comment somewhere that of all the decedents of Elendil Nimruzîr, Aragorn resembled him the most? This would also lead to a greater fear of him as he might have inherited Elendil's ability to command, fight and draw Sauron's enemies under his banner. Another alliance (which in the books consisted of Men, Dwarfs and Elfs) would be frightening to Sauron given the last one. Scattered weak enemies are not that frightening but a unified body could make its way to destroy the Ring. Also he might have feared that Aragorn possessed a will great enough to command the ring and through it Sauron himself.

As for Saruman, he was studying the ring lore, I don't know if Sauron was aware of this and if he was he might have just crushed Saruman at the start as he would fear the creation of a ring that could dominate his own. Which is my speculation as to what Saruman's true intent was. I don't think Saruman wanted to use the ring I think he wanted to master the Lore to build a ring to command even Sauron and place the world under his dominion.

[Ngugi]

We actually know Saruman wanted to use the One himself:

Thus the Wise were troubled, but none as yet perceived that Curunír had turned to dark thoughts and was already a traitor in heart: for he desired that he and no other should find the Great Ring, so that he might wield it himself and order all the world to his will.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.
- Appendix B; footnote

...Saruman's integrity "had been undermined by purely personal pride and lust for the domination of his own will. His study of the Rings had caused this, for his pride believed that he could use them, or It, in defiance of any other will. ..."
- UT; The Palantíri; Note 14

To weild it properly, as he beside few others ought to be able to, would enable power to fight Sauron himself, and that without having to put himself at risk by bind his power and existance to an object - that presumably could not be created in this part of the world outside Mordor. But to get there he needed the One to begin with;

'But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring. '
- Gandalf, TTT; The White Rider

But Saruman had slowly shaped [Orthanc] to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived-for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own. came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress. armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.
- TTT; The Road to Isengard

[Veteraan]

We actually know Saruman wanted to use the One himself:To weild it properly, as he beside few others ought to be able to, would enable power to fight Sauron himself, and that without having to put himself at risk by bind his power and existance to an object - that presumably could not be created in this part of the world outside Mordor. But to get there he needed the One to begin with;

Wow, I had to read this quite a number of times because at first glance, it seemed to me that Ngugi was sprouting Lore nonsense.

Finally I came to the conclusion that it does make sense after all, in fact I totally agree.
What a relief that was. Now when I go to bed, it will be without having the eerie feeling that a small part of the universe had gone insane keeping me awake.

[Khay]

Could someone owning the english version of the book check for me, during the chapter of the battle of Helm's Deep, when Aragorn stands above the gate and talks to the orcs, he jumps of it when the orcs throw at him "une grêle de traits et de flêches" in the french version, which could be translated by "a rain of bolts and arrows" as far as I can tell. In french a crossbow projectile can be designated as a "carreau" or a "trait", and are not used for other weapons afaik, which suprises me as i always thought the crossbows were non-canonical.

I'm cautious with the french translation now, as the bridge over the Baranduin originally called the Stonebow Bridge is translated as "le Pont des Arbalètes" when it should have been "Le pont des Arches de Pierre".

(And by "someone" i meant ngugi :p)

[Þiudreiks]

I know I'm not Ngugi but:

So great a power and royalty was Aragorn, as he stood there alone above the ruined gates before the host of his enemies, that many of the wild men paused, and looked back over their shoulders to the valley, and some looked up doubtfully at the sky. But the Orcs laughed with loud voices; and a hail of darts and arrows whistled over the wall, as Aragorn leaped down.

[Veteraan]

I know I'm not Ngugi but:

but there is nothing wrong with your eyes.

[Hresvelgr]

I know I'm not Ngugi but:

Tolkien seems to use the word "darts" quite often, though I think in his use a dart is just a generic term for any sort of missile/projectile weapon.

Also, something you said in the new Hobbit models thread got me to thinking. Why was Dale a "lordship"? Before Bard established the Kingdom of Dale, Dale was referred to as being a lordship and not a kingdom and its only named ruler was Lord Girion. What seems most suspect is that Dale before the dragon was clearly said to be a prosperous powerful city, so why wouldn't they claim a kingship? Bard clearly did several generations later. Perhaps Bard was assuming the mantle of the long-lost Kingdom of Rhovanion by declaring himself the first mannish king in that land since it fell?

[Ngugi]

Yes, 'dart' is often used as synonym.


Dale was a kingdom, but in The Hobbit [TH] Bard never is said to become king (while he advance from captain to 'regent' of Laketown to 'general' of it's men);

"Bard is not lost!" he cried. "He dived from Esgaroth, when the enemy was slain. I am Bard, of the line of Girion; I am the slayer of the dragon!"
"King Bard! King Bard!" they shouted; but the Master ground his chattering teeth.
"Girion was lord of Dale, not king of Esgaroth," he said. "In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men. Let 'King Bard' go back to his own kingdom-Dale is now freed by his valour, and nothing binders his return. And any that wish can go with him, if they prefer the cold shores under the shadow of the Mountain to the green shores of the lake. The wise will stay here and hope to rebuild our town, and enjoy again in time its peace and riches."
"We will have King Bard!" the people near at hand shouted in reply.
... As you see, the Master had not got his position for nothing. The result of his words was that for the moment the people quite forgot their idea of a new king, and turned their angry thoughts towards Thorin and his company. Wild and bitter words were shouted from many sides; and some of those who had before sung the old songs loudest, were now heard as loudly crying that the dwarves had stirred the dragon up against them deliberately!
"Fools!" said Bard. "Why waste words and wrath on those unhappy creatures? Doubtless they perished first in fire, before Smaug came to us." Then even as he was speaking, the thought came into his heart of the fabled treasure of the Mountain lying without guard or owner, and he fell suddenly silent. He thought of the Master's words, and of Dale rebuilt, and filled with golden bells, if he could but find the men.
At length he spoke again: "This is no time for angry words. Master, or for considering weighty plans of change. There is work to do. I serve you still -though after a while I may think again of your words and go North with any that will follow me."
Meanwhile Bard took the lead, and ordered things as he wished, though always in the Master's name, and he had a hard task to govern the people and direct the preparations for their protection and housing.
(...)

Bard had rebuilt the town in Dale and men had gathered to him from the Lake and from South and West, and all the valley had become tilled again and rich, and the desolation was now filled with birds and blossoms in spring and fruit and feasting in autumn.
- TH

That he actually became king was made clear first much later when LotR was written, and placed 3 years after TH (that take place in 2941);

'The grandson of Bard the Bowman rules them, Brand son of Bain son of Bard. He is a strong king, and his realm now reaches far south and east of Esgaroth.'
- Gloin, FotR; Many Meetings

2944 Bard rebuilds Dale and becomes King....
- Appendix B

[leo.civil.uefs]

There are camels in any tolkien book?
Are them lore accurate?

I hate them, its quite simple to change them with horses.

Some lore-master please clarify this to me.

[Ngugi]

There are camels in any tolkien book?
Are them lore accurate?

I hate them, its quite simple to change them with horses.

Some lore-master please clarify this to me.

Nope, while they naturally exist somewhere in the world they are AFAIK and can tell never mentioned once in all writings.
Donkeys are but not camels

[leo.civil.uefs]

Nope, while they naturally exist somewhere in the world they are AFAIK and can tell never mentioned once in all writings.
Donkeys are but not camels

This is enough for me to removing them. Thanks!