Tolkien General Discussion II

[Flinn]

tnx mom, so it was how I guessed, just a coincidence in my mind

[Ngugi]

LOL

[Lortano]

Wait, Aragorn was 10 at this time? !

(Rewrites chapter in his Hobbit book due to involving a full grown Aragorn)

[Ngugi]

Yes, Aragorn was born 1st March 2931 and The Hobbit's quest take place in April - October 2941

[Tankbustaz]

That is what I told my friend when she asked if the Hobbit movies had Aragorn.

[Veteraan]

(where Aragorn first was a Hobbit who was called Trotter due to him wearing wooden shoes hehe)

What, Aragorn was originally a Dutch Hobbit???

That is what I told my friend when she asked if the Hobbit movies had Aragorn.

That certainly wouldn't stop PJ from including him.

[Nastrael]

Ok, this is either the greatest epiphany I've ever had in regards to Tolkien's work, or the most ridiculous thing ever... it seems to me that Elrond, and not Aragorn, has the strongest claim to the throne of Gondor.

[Flinn]

not sure about the sense of your post Nastrael, anyway from my point of view, apart from the far kinship between Elrond and the line of the kings there are no other reasons that sustain such a theory.

Elrond was the brother of Elros, but when he choosed to be enlisted within the Elves he actually renounced to any right in this sense; I even doubt that he met again his brother after he left for Numenor.

The figure of Elrond is that of a wise and smart supporter and protector of all the good beeings fighting against Sauron, while the role he took regarding the kingship of the Edain was that of a custodian of the eldest and most preciuos hirelooms.

As far as my knowledge goes he always kept a neutral behaviuor after the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age, he didn't mingled with Arnor and he only started to give shelter to their heirs only after the kingdom was utterly destroyed, while he never put his nose into Gondor's affairs.

Though theorically possible I do believe he did not have any real right over kingship in Gondor

[Nastrael]

not sure about the sense of your post Nastrael, anyway from my point of view, apart from the far kinship between Elrond and the line of the kings there are no other reasons that sustain such a theory.

Elrond was the brother of Elros, but when he choosed to be enlisted within the Elves he actually renounced to any right in this sense; I even doubt that he met again his brother after he left for Numenor.

The figure of Elrond is that of a wise and smart supporter and protector of all the good beeings fighting against Sauron, while the role he took regarding the kingship of the Edain was that of a custodian of the eldest and most preciuos hirelooms.

As far as my knowledge goes he always kept a neutral behaviuor after the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age, he didn't mingled with Arnor and he only started to give shelter to their heirs only after the kingdom was utterly destroyed, while he never put his nose into Gondor's affairs.

Though theorically possible I do believe he did not have any real right over kingship in Gondor

I'd hardly say that the brother of the first king of Numenor could be considered "far kinship." While I understand that it is a bit of a stretch, considering Elrond's disposition, technically speaking, he is more closely linked to Westernese than any living man, with the exception of Earendil himself.

In regards to the whole neutrality thing, while we have no real evidence of Elrond having much to do with Arnor, he did play a role in the downfall of Angmar.

[Flinn]

I'd hardly say that the brother of the first king of Numenor could be considered "far kinship."

it was related to the line of the kings of Gondor/Arnor, about 50 generations between Elros and Aragorn are a far kinship to me

to be clear: between Elrdon and his possible claim for the throne of Gondor there have been tents of generations of kings and rulers, so I can't see any right for him, neither from araldic nor from blood; and anyway Elrond never claimed for himself any kingdom, not even the one to which he probably had more rights, is to say the Noldorin one.

[Tankbustaz]

What, Aragorn was originally a Dutch Hobbit???




That certainly wouldn't stop PJ from including him.

PJ might revive the concept with camera tricks.

[Duke of Metz]

Aragorn's claim to kingship is stronger than that of Elrond's, even if one were to conveniently forget the fact that he is an elf. The line of kingship passes from father to son. In order for the King's brother to have the claim of kingship, there must be no surviving sons (or daughters if we use Numenorian law) of the king remaining. Aragorn is a direct descendant, father to son, from Elendil himself, the father of the realms. Therefore his claim would take precedence over Elrond's.

Further confusing things, is that Elendil is not a direct descendant/heir of Elros. He does not come from the line of Kings of Numenor, but rather the line of Lords of Andunie. When the realms of Gondor and Arnor were founded under the High Kingship of Elendil, that would be a new kingship of the Dunadain - not the direct continuation of the line of Elros. Thus the claim to kingship would need to based on the relation to Elendil and not to Elros. This is quite a complex relationship for Elrond - Elendil was the 19th in the line of the Lords of Andunie, which descend from Silmarien daughter of Tar-Elendil, the fourth King of Numenor. Thus if my math is good, that would make Elrond a 23rd cousin (once-removed) from Elendil. Not exactly a strong claim, even if one were to ignore the fact that he is an elf...

[Kiliç Alì]

We can't know if there had been any relation between te line of Andunie and the Kings' one afterwards tought - and I seem to recall that there was some inter-marriage between them... our loremaster will know that fo sure.

I even doubt that he met again his brother after he left for Numenor.

C'mon, 5 hundred years, all almighty power of men and elf, no enemies, ships and such, and you don't take a trip so see your brother? sure master Elrond is better than that

A total different topic: any of you knows a good site with the lyrics from tolkien's songs?

[Macilrille]

No connection between Elros and Elrond that we know off after the settling of Numenor no.
And also no other addition of royal blood to the lords of Andunie, though Inzilbeth (sister of Eærendur of Andunie) was taken to.wife by Gimilzor, against her will.

Weird spelling and punctuations is the fault of my dying Android. Six months since it parried a spear, and it is suffering badly ;-)

[Ngugi]

Weird spelling and punctuations is the fault of my dying Android. Six months since it parried a spear, and it is suffering badly ;-)

Oh, one think a spear-thrust would have skewered a wild boar! Did it wore an mithtril skirt under the cover?

[Veteraan]

Weird spelling and punctuations is the fault of my dying Android. Six months since it parried a spear, and it is suffering badly ;-)

Oh, one think a spear-thrust would have skewered a wild boar! Did it wore an mithtril skirt under the cover?

Well, I'm no lore professor like you two, but I suspect he keeps his precious Android in a cover made of Athelas leaves.

[Mhaedros]

I'm certain the UT or the 12th volume of HoME said the first Numenoreans returned to Middle Earth in 600-700 SA, so Elros can't have returned.

[Macilrille]

Nah my mobile did not wear its armour that day, and I had forgotten to take it out of my pocket cause I carried it in a different pocket than usual.

[Gurak]

On the subject of Orcs, I was re-reading the bit at the end of TT, just after Frodo gets Shelob-ed, and Sam is eavesdropping on Shagrat and Gorbag.
What struck me about this conversation is the degree to which it showed that Orcs have the same basic emotions and thoughts as humans. At one point Gorbag even suggests that he and Shagrat should go AWOL with a few trusty lads and go somewhere with no big bosses, 'Just like old times'.

In fact, many of the conversations between Orcs don't come off too different from similar conversations we can see in Pre-19th century military novels between enlisted men of the period.
Orcs often seem to get labeled as stupid, inherently evil creatures, but I wonder if humans would act particularly differently if they found themselves in similarly brutal situations.
Actually I don't. Humans prove time and time again their incredible capacity for brutality to each other, and everything else around them.

Orcs are also clearly not stupid - at least, not all of them.
Tolkien notes that they are crafty and make good tools, and implies that they have some skill with technical machines.
Again, more similarity to humans.

Basically, their major shortcoming seems to be that they are controlled and brutally oppressed by evil masters (that they clearly hate, but fear) and that they are (by human standards) dirty and ugly.
Many of the groups of men in Middle Earth don't seem all that much different.
(Aragorn wasn't much cleaner than the average Snaga for most of the movies!)

It makes me wonder, if the elves really notice a huge difference between the two species.
Perhaps they see humans not much differently than humans see Orcs? Brutal, filthy, uncultured, short lived, ugly...

Just a thought.

[athanaric]

In fact, many of the conversations between Orcs don't come off too different from similar conversations we can see in Pre-19th century military novels between enlisted men of the period.
Orcs often seem to get labeled as stupid, inherently evil creatures, but I wonder if humans would act particularly differently if they found themselves in similarly brutal situations.
Actually I don't. Humans prove time and time again their incredible capacity for brutality to each other, and everything else around them.

The point is that Orcs are basically (speaking in a meta way) humans gone wrong. They're a distillation of the bad traits of human culture(s) and the mean-spirited, violent side of human nature. They are humans without the potential for good. The sad thing is that some "humans" have completely abandoned their good side. I think all of us have met these orc types somewhere.