Tolkien General Discussion II

[athanaric]

It would be perfectly reasonable though for Gondor and other "good" factions to recruit regional auxiliaries in other places, from local anti-Sauronic resistance or whatever (shouldn't there be sources out there? I think the men of Dunharrow should count as an example, even though they ended up as ghost army). FATW implemented this quite well, although I do think the EB dual system, as mentioned above, would be better for a Middle-Earth setting.

I would say part of his problem is the POV system is starting to get in the way of his epic goal(s). In Book one it allows a tight Raymond Chandler type tension surrounding the somewhat nihilist short term politics. Also the "deconstruction" as athanaric puts sometimes is a little too thick. Its a tense episode when Sansa wakes to find herself of age and panic, its interesting to see Tywin die on Privy but I get a little tired of reading about the imp pissing...

Indeed. I think Tolkien did very well in getting across values and themes without getting preachy or heavy-handed (unlike some others. Never been able to really enjoy CS Lewis, for example). Although some might find the anti-industrial spin a little too drastic, I suppose...

[muller227]

@Athanaric I think Tolkien and Martin both are fine, they write their worlds differently. Martin is realistic, Tolkien really wants good and evil separated. His little bit about the Haradrim and Sam's reaction to a battle of men against men I think most eloquently displays his belief in peace, it is confusing there. Are the Haradrim really bad. I do not think Tolkien thinks so, they are misguided.. Martin on the other hand portrays men as they really are not how they should be from Tolkien's point of view.

[Lortano]

I haven't read GoT because honestly, why the hell would I want to read a fictional book based on how humans really were in the old feudal socities. The thought that evil does win, that the most ruthless can win, depresses me to no end.

Tolkien however shows men how they should be, and it gives hope to humanity. As has been said, in the chapter 'Of herbs and stewed rabbit' Sam does wonder whether the Haradrim has been threatened to leave his home and fight for Sauron. Tolkien belived and wrote about the innate good of man, and chastises those who would rule by force and fear. THAT is true epic fantasy, the black and white battle betwen good and evil that so many have emulated over the years since this book. The Inheritance cycle was the best example of this, though even that fell flat on the ending.
(Power of love and understanding my arse.)

Sadly a lot of authors will now try to copy Martin in regards to the whole Medieval feudal backstabby feel, and no one will do the black and white good versus evil story. Actually it's probably for the best because most of the authors either do a One Ring rip off, or do really silly things, like have the villain be comically evil with the moustache twirling cackle having him live in a castle, and retarded magic systems. Even Paolini, and I loved his stuff, couldn't believe his age when he wrote that, fell victim to making his villain far to powerful for his own good and ended up doing the damn cheap way out.

[muller227]

Excellent post Lortano, no where is this shown more than the surprise of the Dunlanders at the clemency of the Rohirrim, a people they thought burned captives alive. The Easterlings and the Haradrim fight to the bitter end at Pelennor(they have courage in defeat like the Edain of old). Evil motivates mankind by making men believe they are doing good in the service of darkness. Tolkien does not beat you over the head with this theme but it is there.

[Tankbustaz]

It also gives enterprising modders ideas for supporting units.

[riuk881]

What are the three white towers north of Elostirion and east of Mithlond?

[Flinn]

I suppose you mean the White Towers

Towers in the Tower Hills west of the Shire. Elostirion was the tallest of the three White Towers that were built by Gil-galad for Elendil.

The palantir called the Elendil Stone was kept at Elostirion. This palantir was not in accord with the others and looked west across the Sea to Eressea, where the Master-stone was kept in the Tower of Avallone. Elostirion and the Elendil Stone were long guarded by Cirdan and the Elves of the Grey Havens, and when Elrond left Middle-earth in 3021 of the Third Age, Cirdan placed the palantir on his ship.

and

In the year 34 of the Fourth Age, Samwise Gamgee's daughter Elanor and her husband Fastred of Greenholm moved to Undertowers in the Tower Hills. Their descendants came to be called the Fairbairns of the Towers.

[riuk881]

I suppose you mean the White Towers



and

THANKS!

[Krieglord]

Been re-reading ROTK and just got past Sam waking up and them leaving the wood's and seeing the host of the west and the 3 throne's and was wondering, what exactly is the significance of Dol Amroth in the whole Gondorian system of governance etc?

Is it placed so highly simply because of the http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Prince ?

Obviously they played a crucial role in the book's but to be given a seat alongside the king's of Gondor and Rohan?

Or did I answer my own question ?

[Tankbustaz]

The Prince and The Steward are related to each other in the story. As a resut, He is given an important place in the council.

[Mhaedros]

I would guess it's similar to Rohan's Marshalls, though not the exact same thing.

[Macilrille]

Belfalas is much like Rohan an independent fief that has accepted the sovereignety of Gondor. It is rich, populous and the people there are pure-blooded and noble. And the princely line seems to be stretching back at least to the foundation of Gondor, possibly before, is of the very highest Faithful blood, likely with relations to the line of Anorion, and with Elf blood since 1980.

The Princes also traditionally lead a wing/flank of the main army of Gondor.

There is more, much is scattered in UT and HoME, and one day when I get time, I might write an essay on them.

Edit, for example, in UT "The story of Cirion and Eorl" the Prince accompanies Cirion and Eorl to Elendil's tomb to swear The Oath of Eorl in the name of Eru.

[conon394]

Belfalas is much like Rohan an independent fief that has accepted the sovereignety of Gondor.

I cannot agree Rohan is a separate country Belfalas is not. Due to the lineage of its ruler and his traditinal place in Gondor's ruling elite is is certainly an important place and it ruler is likely one that JRRT hints had could challenge for the stewardship or crown but it is part of Gondor.

[Ngugi]

Wouldn't either put an equal sign between Rohan and Belfalas, though it is worth noting that the alliance between country Rohan and country Gondor on one hand have strong likness with a fief-lord relationship, while on the other hand relationship between the fief of Belfalas/Dol Amorth and lordship of the king/steward of Gondor have strong likness with an alliance.

[Cirion:] I will now declare what I have resolved, with the authority of the Stewards of the Kings, to offer to Eorl son of Léod, Lord of the Éothéod, in recognition of the valour of his people and of the help beyond hope that he brought to Gondor in time of dire need. To Eorl I will give in free gift all the great land of Calenardhon from Anduin to Isen. There, if he will, he shall be kind, and his heirs after him, and his people shall dwell in freedom while the authority of the Stewards endures, until the Great King returns. No bond shall be laid upon them other than their own laws and will, save in this only: they shall live in perpetual friendship with Gondor and its enemies shall be their enemies while both realms endure. But the same bond shall be laid also on the people of Gondor.
(...)

[Eorl:] Hear now all peoples who bow not to the Shadow in the East, by the gift of the Lord of the Mundburg we will come to dwell in the land that he names Calenardhon, and therefore I vow in my own name and on behalf of the Éothéod of the North that between us and the Great People of the West there shall be friendship for ever: their enemies shall be our enemies, their need shall be our need, and whatsoever evil, or threat, or assault may come upon them we will aid them to the utmost end of our strength. This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken, lest the Shadow fall upon them and they become accursed.
- Steward Cirion, UT; Cirion and Eorl and The Friendship of Gondor and Rohan; Cirion and Eorl


39 The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title [prince]. It was given to his ancestors by Elendil, with whom they had kinship. ...
- UT; Cirion and Eorl and The Friendship of Gondor and Rohan; Notes

After the ending of the kings they became virtually independent princes, ruling over Belfalas, but they were at all times loyal to the Steward as representing the ancient crown.
- HoME 12; The Heirs of Elendil; The House of Dol Amroth

Though the choice of the word 'virtually' is significant, because it make clear that Belfalas was still subjected to the stewards and a part of Gondor, and their lords were sworn to the regent of Gondor. To say that Belfalas was autonomous would required it to have broken off from Gondor or that Gondor cut it off, the former an act of insurgency which we are not presented and the latter not executed.
Belfalas was a part of Gondor, while Rohan was gifted as a land not subjected to Gondor but allied.
It is for example obvious when Denethor had died and Faramir was indisposed [and Aragorn did not yet had been appointed king] , and Imrahil is appointed to deputize Faramir - seemingly as highest lord in the realm next to the steward line - while Éomer king of Rohan is not, as Rohan was not part of Gondor and thus not a legitimate candidate,

[Cyclops]

Not sure if Rohan accepted the sovreignty of Gondor (happy to be corrected if wrong though). IIRC Aragorn hugs Eomer (at the Minas Tirith afterparty? or Cormalllon?) and says

Between us there can be no word of giving or taking, nor of reward; for we are brethren. In happy hour did Eorl ride from the North, and never has any league of peoples been more blessed, so that neither has ever failed the other, nor shall fail.

so I suspect they are allied, the price of Calenardhon being military aid, possibly both ways.

[Macilrille]

It is very evident at The Last Debate that Eomer is an ally while Imrahil is a Vassal, they say so.

But IRL things are more murky then that. And there are both similarities and differences between Dor-en-Ernil and Rohan. At some point, I will write an essay on it, but it may be years yet with my job being... hard.

[Macilrille]

BTW, I just had a long walk on a starlit beach with my ferret in a clear and frosty night.

Only afterwards did I consider how very "Elven" that is. I understand them, it was nice.

[Cyclops]

BTW, I just had a long walk on a starlit beach with my ferret in a clear and frosty night.

Only afterwards did I consider how very "Elven" that is. I understand them, it was nice.

The ferret or the starlight?

I do know what you mean, although I live 10,000 miles as the dragon flies from the country of Tolkien's youthful inspiration, there are times when starlight enters my soul. I've felt dumbstruck on a beach at sunset, reclined in mossy bowers and faced the wind on a green hillside and felt that way.

[Flinn]

a dark and pretty useless question

you know at the end of the Hobbit, when Bilbo was found by a man after the Battle of the Five Armies.. well I'm quite curious about this man.. is there any reference to him apart what it is said on the book itself?

the point is, when Tolkien describes him he said he was walking with long steps and other things that made me think of Aragorn .. clearly he can't be Aragorn, but it hit me the fact that Tolkien gave such details about this man (IIRC he clearly said that Gandalf sent him to look for Bilbo) while he usually avoid to give description of characters except the main ones.. could it be that the character was an "idea" of a future Aragorn .. or maybe his father or one of his relatives? is there any reference about Gandalf being in direct contact with the Rangers before Aragorn's period?

[Ngugi]

No, this is all we ever get AFAIK;

Suddenly he was aware of a man climbing up and coming towards him."Hullo there!" he called with a shaky voice. "Hullo there! What news?"
"What voice is it that speaks among the stones?" said the man halting and peering about him not far from where Bilbo sat.
Then Bilbo remembered his ring! "Well I'm blessed!" said he. "This invisibility has its drawbacks after all. Otherwise I suppose I might have spent a warm and comfortable night in bed!"
"It's me, Bilbo Baggins, companion of Thorin!" he cried, hurriedly taking off the ring.
"It is well that I have found you!" said the man striding forward. "You are needed and we have looked for you long. You would have been numbered among the dead, who are many, if Gandalf the wizard had not said that your voice was last heard in this place. I have been sent to look here for the last time. Are you much hurt?"
"A nasty knock on the head, I think," said Bilbo. "But I have a helm and a hard skull. All the same I feel sick and my legs are like straws."
"I will carry you down to the camp in the valley," said the man, and picked him lightly up.
The man was swift and sure-footed. It was not long before Bilbo was set down before a tent in Dale; and there stood Gandalf, with his arm in a sling. Even the wizard had not escaped without a wound; and there were few unharmed in all the host.
When Gandalf saw Bilbo, he was delighted. "Baggins!" he exclaimed. "Well I never! Alive after all - 1 am glad! I began to wonder if even your luck would see you through! A terrible business, and it nearly was disastrous. But other news can wait. Come!" he said more gravely. "You are called for;" and leading the hobbit he took him within the tent [to Thorin].

The man was not sent on (edit: a personal errand, as many were sent out), and I am utterly convinced that Tolkien did not gave him a thought afterwards either. It's just a human (thus referenced as 'man' in the difference to the otherwise present Dwarves and Elves) soldier in the right place at the right time to fill a logic, realistic but menial story step.
To belive this is a seed to Aragorn and the Rangers based on a walking style carry no realistic weight, and if you read HoME 6 where we see how Aragorn and the existence of the Eriador Dúnedain was created trough many steps (where Aragorn first was a Hobbit who was called Trotter due to him wearing wooden shoes hehe) and with different sources and inspiration non has any reference to anything like that.

Aragorn was 10 years old at this point may be added.

What concern Gandalf and the Rangers I can't think of any example that he co-operated with them prior to becoming friend to Aragorn, though it's not credible he did not had contact with them now and then.