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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3221
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sorry for late reply, had to finish some modding, got inspired to work by lore talk, haha.

    Never questioned they had; however just that rather make it less credible to my ears that Isildur marched into what should be their territory (in their backyard, such speaking) and put up a large stone as a sign of their obligation (no matter mutual obligations, it would still be "in their face"). This perception, mind you, is that while it could been a celebrating symbol of companionship, a "statue of liberty" gifted by Isildur, I do not fancy that idea.
    My more cynical view is because the demand of the sacred oath, at that special stone, do all but cry confidence and hearty union between the two rulers or peoples, haha.

    To me it seems more likely he would put it just once you entered, or on the very border of, Gondor (the latter fairly reasonable if to been a 'neutral territory' for the rulers to met; see quote below), so when any Mountain men decend from their highlands down the valley the first thing they will face entering Gondor is the Black Stone, as a reminder on the deal with this realm; in the manner the Romans erected stones on their borders, to remind barbarians about that they were to enter the Empire and the consequences of hostile intent, and in a manner as with the Argonath in the later Age.
    Also, if to trust one origin story (however odd a thing it seems to saved), the Stone came from Numenor [as I mention for the record], and to drop off such an artifact in the land of folk you're at so-so footing with, well just don't ring true to me.

    But who knows? ^^
    All I can say (and had to dig a while to find this again) is that Tolkien in one instance, while making drafts to RotK, makes it sound as a border point:
    '[the Black Stone] was brought from Numenor, and marks still the l place where Isildur met the last king of the Dark Men of the Mountains, when he established the bounds of Gondor.'- HoME 8; XII the Last Debate; Note 26
    This comes from a directly rejected text obviously (JRR messed up Elendil's family tree when writing, hehe), so folks are free to deem I read it wrong or was a discarded idea, whatever strikes their fancy

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  2. #3222
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    This is a point I've been thinking about since I first read the Hobbit (which happened after I read the LotR); do we have any hint about who is the man that found and helped Bilbo near the end of the book?
    I refer to when he (Bilbo) woke up after the end of the battle; we have no name of this man, but it made me think when I read that he was a "strider" and also the fact that was Gandalf himself who sent him to look for Bilbo (it would have made more sense for Gandalf to send elves to look for him, so this fact probably means that he knew this man very well).

    My mind immediately went to Aragorn, but at the time of the events of the Hobbit he was around 10 years old, so I wonder if this man could be someone else of his family or, most probably, an hint or an idea of a character that would have been born only later on.
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  3. #3223
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Considering neither Aragorn or his folk were invented when The Hobbit was written, the lore answer is a solid No. It was not Tolkien's intent when he wrote it, and he did not suggest it later.
    Beside in a pure fan fiction setting, for the personal fun of the thought of it, there's nothing whatsoever, in The Hobbit or any other scripture I ever read or got referenced, to even encourage the possibility that the man is anyone else than just another Laketown man, so irrelevant he's not named, sent on an errand.
    Sorry to rain on the parade, mate

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  4. #3224
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I nominate you for the best dream destroyer ever, you furry scum!!

    and "mate"?? who the hell is this dude??

    jokes aside, I was expecting a similar answer, still you can't deny that the hints (fictionally speaking) are really suspicious, at the least
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  5. #3225

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Impossible because The Hobbit happens in 2941 T.A., Aragorn goes out into the Wild in 2952 T.A. and mets Gandalf in 2956 T.A.

    Edit: ups very late answer and I misunderstood the question, how I can delete a post?
    Last edited by Drorin; January 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #3226
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    afaik you can't, but you can still edit your post, although I don't see why you should do so in this case
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  7. #3227

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ah, ok. I asked because the answer that I gave was meaningless hehe
    By the way, very good final video Ngugi. One question about Isildur and White Tree, where you get the date? At the time I did a chronology from the First Age to the end of the Third Age and it did not find it.

  8. #3228
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It's a mistake of mine, in two regards. First the date is an estimate from a secondary source and not a given date (but which I tend to favour, on grounds I started to describe but reloaded the page so it all went away ), and secondaly adding a date to the script was a last minute act that I either should stressed was an estimate (since I avoided uncertain content as much as possible) or preferably left out all together (my "Gil-galad paratentage" miss, hehe).

    Will amend it by a disclaimer as soon as I got annotations to work
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 21, 2016 at 03:08 PM.

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  9. #3229

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ah, ok! hehe
    You will do more videos? I encourage you to do so. I always like to see the vision that other people have on Tolkien's work, especially if they know more than me.

  10. #3230
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Got the annotation up, so now it's made clear the date is an estimate

    Hmm, I intend to make faction presentation videos for DCI: Last Alliance further on, and in those lore will be put on the table.
    On 'pure lore' videos, well, if it pop up a topic I desire to present, and/or consider folk should get informed about, and if there's time, I may make future works.

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  11. #3231
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post



    Lore Videos








    finally found the time to watch them both, AWESOME work (both informative and very funny); anyone even only marginally interested in the Middle Earth should be really watching those (also, english reading voice is quite easy to follow).

    ps. mommy, is that you reading?? (I listen that bit of northern accent when the elvish words are pronounced, you know).

    Great job anyway
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  12. #3232
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thank you for such kind words Did my best to be informative, and in my custom that takes a formal tone, yet spice it up with entertaning illustrations, because that makes learning so much more fun in my experience ^^


    PS Indeed it is sonny, and it felt really odd to hear my own voice in the beginning, haha

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  13. #3233
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    well you have a very good english pronunciation mommy on the negative side, now I lost the former image I had of your voice (you don't want to know what I imagined eh, do you?? )

    anyhow, must say that I love the way you pronunciate the elven words, I always assumed it was easier to voice them in a latin tone (apart from the C-K phonetics and other little differences I found it pretty similar), but I must say the northern intonation fits better (and IIRC the elvish is based anyway on old northern languages).
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  14. #3234
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    You imagined me as He-man, naturally!



    Aye; would be interesting to hear how different words and names roll of thew tongue on people from different linguistic backgrounds
    Got a few remarks for my Sindarin already hehe, on emphases that is, but it's how I think of the words (if it's even coherent, some words I say in different ways without concern), and always been bad at languages so I do not care to much ^^
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 25, 2016 at 09:02 AM.

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  15. #3235
    Veteraan's Avatar Just Mossing around
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Those videos are very enlightening to everybody, I'm sure. With the exception of the very limited few that are on Ngugi's lore knowledge level. Also this must have taken a lot of time and probably some frustrating events down the way. It should earn him a ton of rep, which probably will not happen. Not that he has a shortage of rep, of course.

    As for the voice, I secretly had hoped it would have sounded something like this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  16. #3236
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quite some time, true; the second video alone used over 150 different slides/pages, but it's worth it


    Haha, nooo, that's our Sacred Tongue, we only speak that on special occasions

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  17. #3237

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I have a question, what was the biggest/most populated city at the time of the War of the Ring?

  18. #3238
    IBSXYPNTS's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AmrothForGondor View Post
    I have a question, what was the biggest/most populated city at the time of the War of the Ring?
    Minas Tirith I believe for Gondor. Although I think Umbar and the other evil men cities were far more populated at this point. Im sure the great Ngugi will come in with lore evidence I cannot access at this moment.

  19. #3239
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Unknown, AFAIK.
    His fans often crave numbers, but JRR was very seldom interested in giving any, which may disappoint many, but I think from a story telling perspective is for the best.

    Would I be asked to speculate, on the known settlements, I would guess Umbar on hunch.

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  20. #3240
    atthias's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    hello lore masters I have a question
    were were the foresights from galadriel's mirror coming from
    would you like to see a lord of the rings mod vote in the link below so that we can hope for a middle earth map
    https://www.change.org/p/total-war-a...ign-map-editor
    the petition above is CLOSED and send CA now
    and here is the link to the team that is trying to made a lord of the rings mod http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...ordor-(TW-RoM)

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