Tolkien General Discussion II

[athanaric]

The men of the West fight against annihilation and enslavement what do we fight for now, hatred, oil, vengeance that is orcish.

Usually, there's two sides to a conflict. While Tolkien and a lot of other writers of his time were right to condemn the senseless slaughter and dehumanization that occurred in WWI (and, albeit under different auspices, in WWII), most people have drawn the wrong conclusion from their works. I'm not trying to justify aggressive policies of the US or any other modern country here, but you can't simply say "our modern wars/conflicts are wrong, because WWI was wrong". It's a totally different scenario and today, "the west" as mostly on the defensive. Also, Western armies post-WWII are the most civilized and humane in human history so far.

[muller227]

You are right, western armies today try very hard to limit casualties. Strict rules of engagement put them at a disadvantage and that their enemy actually counts on when planning attacks. My criticism is for the society that puts them there these ultra patriots who never served a day, I did long ago nothing happened kind of happy about that. I talk to these guys who get back all the time they are damn good guys for the most part. My issue is with a society that is overly aggressive not with the men and women on the sharp end. They are humane in the oddest ways you can imagine, even things people would consider cruel are done with the idea of saving their lives and the lives of civilians. I see a lot more orcish behavior in people at home than I do in the friends of my sons.

[PandaChef]

Why didnt Saruman command his forces at the siege of Helms Deep?

[Ngugi]

Because he's not a 'heroic leader' who fight for a greater good but rather a self-centered leader who is into the war for personal benefit, I suppose.
When it become obvious to him he may be hurt Morgoth stop leading armies himself, Sauron don't either once he was first himself threatened in the war in the 17th century SA; in any case it's an obvious trait in Tolkien's mythos they share with what may be viewed as "political leaders" looking at the Stewards who never lead in battles either. It is to be 'wise' as put in Denethor's words, but by Tolkien is reoccuring a sign of lacking desriable traits in a good leader;

[Gandalf:] '... [Faramir] is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.’‘Not - the Dark Lord?’ cried Pippin, forgetting his place in his terror.
Denethor laughed bitterly. ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.’

- RotK; The Seige of Gondor

It is both a perspective that belongs to a perception that been present since the antiquity in reality and myths, as well as presumably reinforced by such experiences as from WWI when countries leaders, political as well as military, sat safe behind the lines while they sent millions to their deaths.

[Macilrille]

Also; The Istari are not generals. They are politicians and counsellors.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Because he's not a 'heroic leader' who fight for a greater good but rather a self-centered leader who is into the war for personal benefit, I suppose.
When it become obvious to him he may be hurt Morgoth stop leading armies himself, Sauron don't either once he was first himself threatened in the war in the 17th century SA; in any case it's an obvious trait in Tolkien's mythos they share with what may be viewed as "political leaders" looking at the Stewards who never lead in battles either. It is to be 'wise' as put in Denethor's words, but by Tolkien is reoccuring a sign of lacking desriable traits in a good leader;
It is both a perspective that belongs to a perception that been present since the antiquity in reality and myths, as well as presumably reinforced by such experiences as from WWI when countries leaders, political as well as military, sat safe behind the lines while they sent millions to their deaths.

Didn't the Steward Boromir happen to be a leader of armies?

[Kiliç Alì]

Nevermind

[Ngugi]

Good question, as Boromir I the Steward is one kick ass Man haha. The answer is at best Perhaps.
First it was apperently even a traditional duty for the Steward to not go to war himself:

53 It was also Rómendacil I who established the office of Steward (Arandur "king's servant"), but he was chosen by the King as a man of high trust and wisdom, usually advanced in years since he was not permitted to go to war or to leave the realm. He was never a member of the Royal House. [Author's note.

- UT; Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan; Notes

Mind you it was perhaps not in practice ones they ruled supreme, though we have no example that they broke the tradition (which might been useful at times...).

Second the sons of the Stwewards are known to been captains in war all down to Boromir and Faramir, and Boromir I seems to been another such case. The battle(s) we know he participated in was in 2475; in Appendix A we are only told Mordor took Osgiliath and Ithilien that year and that Boromir fought them and won but the time scale is uncertain, while in HoME 12 it's directly stated that Boromir kicked Mordor and Nazgûl out in 2475.
He became Steward in 2477 and I personally belive he led not armies as Steward, as non of our limited lines of text encourage us to belive he fought while he had the title.
Also we may assume that it was around 2475 he was wounded with a Morgul blade, and that must affected his capacity a lot, even if he was strong enough to survive 14 years before it killed him (one strong man indeed).

[Macilrille]

And did it kill him? (Read what Gandalf says to Frodo it would have done to him).

Denethor is actually no slouch either- even sleeping with his sword (I have tried it- it is not comfortable at all)- but reserving himself for the last stand as he is the rallying point of his people and a "The Chessmaster" on the side of good. Before he became Steward it is hinted that he vied with Thorongil for the love of the people, IE in battle.

That said, Tolkien's sympathetic generals are all heroic and leads from the front. Even old Theoden. But the parallel between Denethor and the Elven Wise are interesting, they all move the chesspieces around, not engaging themselves, but letting the mortals do the dying as there are so few Elves left and their lives are so precious.

[Ngugi]

Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father.

- Appendix A

Oh certainly, Denethors capacity was great and motivation honestly for the good of Gondor (he is one of my favorit Tolkien characters), though from the start he was stricken with pride and envy that set him on the tragic road he walked down.
Personally I belive Denethor in many ways was to Tolkien an 'Aragorn that could been' - and vice versa. Denethor had nearly 'true Numenorean blood' and looked like Aragorn, not merely physichally as both being dark haired and tall but share a kingly apperence (also Denethor decends from Elendil after all). They are almost of the same age (but Denethor aged worse due to his hardships), both are wise, learned, valiant and brave and strong in mind and body, men who take their great inheritence and duties utterly serious and have capacity to lead others, be it in different manners.
All that only make his weaknesses and late despair all the more tragic, as what a magnificent ally and even greater force of good he otherwise could had been

[Macilrille]

I know the men of Gondor think he died...

I agree on Denethor, though it is one specific hardship that lies on him that is different from what Aragorn carries (cause he has gone through more hardship than most); the responsibility of a people which leads to using the Palantir- that is what ages Denethor prematuredly. And as I see it, he did very well strengthening his country, renewing its alliances, taking West Osgiliath (and Cair Andros?) back and raiding the enmy forces marching in Ithilien. I find it hard to see how he could have done better; Middle-earth is not TATW ;-)

[conon394]

I agree on Denethor, though it is one specific hardship that lies on him that is different from what Aragorn carries (cause he has gone through more hardship than most); the responsibility of a people which leads to using the Palantir- that is what ages Denethor prematuredly. And as I see it, he did very well strengthening his country, renewing its alliances, taking West Osgiliath (and Cair Andros?) back and raiding the enmy forces marching in Ithilien. I find it hard to see how he could have done better; Middle-earth is not TATW ;-)

Let's not forget he and Gondor had been screwed by the (supposed) 'wise' for hundreds of years... and he knew it [Outside of the White Lady and even that was indirect]. No payback for killing Angmar - where were all those Noldor when Minas Ithel fell? Gandalf launches into a big rant at Denethor about how he thinks only of Gondor as like Aragorn at Boramir - but for the record Gondor is the only one on record to have sent a cross continental expedition to save somebody else and get more or less no reward. Really why should Denethor trust Gandalf - they (Gondor) trusted his boss and that worked out real good - um not.

In truth Boramir is correct - Gondor has been doing the heavy lifting and nobody gives a damn... where were the Durin's folk to aid in building defenses, where were the wielders of the rings to raise the river against an attack? Aragorn's big defense of what he and his own do sounds hollow since they never even bothered to remove the wrights at the barrows.

Plus Denethor is more or less correct - Gandalf had no plan anyway. How were they going to get into Mordor? He said nothing to Aragorn so that means he was making it up. Was he going to try a Felagund? Maybe but - he screwed that up by not taking a Noldor lord so that plan would have some redundancy. He was throwing at the wall with faith and hoping it stuck - Its not hard to feel for Denathor that is piss poor planning at the 11th hour...

[Macilrille]

You are grinding your axe again Conon.

-How was Gondor screwed exactly?

-How many Noldor were left in M-E at the fall of Minas Ithil?

-Gandalf's boss? Who? Only Manwë was Olorin's boss. If you mean Cúrunir he was only revealed as a traitor in 3018, by Gandalf.

-As for the Dwarves building Gondor's defences? When exactly? You think the people that built Orthanc and the Othram needed any help? And after the loss of Khazad-Dûm the Dwarves did not have much strength to send to anyone.

-Who says that Elrond with Vilya the Ring of Air can cause floodwaves outside of his own land? It seems to me that it was him and only on his home turf. Gondor was not his home turf. Further, using a Ring that close to Mordor? Would that be wise?

-Aragorn is mortal, as are the Dúnedain. The Barrow-wights are evil spirits summoned by the Witch King (or Sauron then sent to serve the WK), who even says they can be removed by mortals? Blame rather Bombadil, who can and on whose lands they dwell, but who just skips around singing.


Yes, Gondor does most of the fighting after the fall of Arthedain. But Gondor was more powerful, populous and prosperous than the North Kingdom, yet the North Kingdom also fought long before it fell. It is precisely for that weakness that Sauron targets them. Gondor does most of the fighting, cause no one else can. No one has the stregth, except Dale, Thranduil and Erebor at the end of the age, but wait... they have the strength because one of Gandalf's plots succeeded...

[Thangaror]

The Stewards' sons certainly served in the army for a time. "Learn to follow before you try to lead". There also was a law in Gondor that forbade the Kings' son to go to war if he was the only heir, that at least one heir had to remain behind respectively. One of the reasons that caused the end of the line of Meneldil was that in 1944 King Ondoher's second son Faramir joined the éothéod instead of staying in Minas Arnor, and thus he died as did his father and older brother. However, it seems this rule didn't apply in the time of the Stewards.

[Ngugi]

I was considering Rammas as well, though in either case I think such pro-active actions as deployed by Aragorn in the guise as Thorongil would been of essence or investments in a fleet, as the ships of Umbar etc. was a crucial obstruction to gather relevant forces when the war broke out.
Though in the whole I understand it as Tolkien meant him to been an efficient ruler in countering the Enemy and his moves, as obvious from what's written concerning the intel gathered and used , from the palantir.
Though I doubt Denethor was a man who made alliances and invited other folks to a common resistance, so that blame should not fall completly on others. Appendix A is clear and harsh on this stain in the Stewards politics; "Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of the Barad-dûr, and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone."

[Macilrille]

Morwën of Lossarnach - Eomund of Rohan (living in Gondor and presumably serving Denethor).
Denethor - Finduilas of Dol Amroth

Both are marriage alliances, such are- in medieval and dark age settings- used to cement the strongest alliances.

He could have built a fleet, but what was he to sacrifice for it? A fleet is expensive and man-power intensive. And Gondor's resources were limited. He had a hard choice to make, and a buffer for Minas Tirith was probably not a bad idea to focus on.

He did grow proud, cold and arrogant, but he was not so from the start. And by and large he was right; who could have helped besides Rohan, with whom Gondor already had the strongest of alliances?

[Ngugi]

Morwen's and Thengel's marriage was in 2943 (it was her daughter Théodwyn who married Eomund), so it was even more significant but before Denethor's rule, he was but 13 then.
He married Finduilas 2976 so as a political marriage it may just as well been his father Echtelion II's decision, as if Morwen-Thengel ought to been his if the state of Gondor played a role in them. To marry the Prince's daughter naturally is a political gain for D' personally, as and yet there's no better alternatives out there. There are no external relevant human states to ally with beside Rohan which alreay are allies, nor any more prominent internal vasalls than Dol Amroth, meaning it's not a surprise impressive decision hehe; and it seems it may been a true case of love anyhow.

It would been reasonable for such a learned leader to say try to send someone to strongholds such as Lórien, Mirkwood, Dale, Erebor, Imladris and what not to establish at leats formal communication in the face of the common enemy, to at the least to encourage them to not yield as others did not or even send whatever support they may, big or small, but he didn't.
Secondly whatever was invested in the Rammas should been put into a fleet, as an enemy fleet that could operate free nullified the value of the Rammas, cutting of forces from the fiefs that would been needed on the wall.
Though it is easy to sit here and say, and I do not argue Denethor misbehaved diplomaticly or military in the big picture but did well in the face of the threats - since I do not belive they stood a chance anyhow, to put as lovely as Tolkien does concerning the obviously related, but in concept different, situation of the First Age: "war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed. "

[Macilrille]

Ah true.

And yes the war was of no hope. I was not thinking of the Rammas, but earlier. It was Denethor that pushed the enemy from W. Osgiliath. At that time, a fleet could have made a difference, but at the price of not pushing the Orks away from striking and raiding distance of Minas Tirith, and not raiding him in Ithilien. So the blow from the south could have been averted, but then a heavier blow would come from the east. However, Thorongil advocated ever for striking at Ûmbar, and him being who he is, was probably right. Yet think of it; Ork raids in Anorien, the enemy not paying a high cost to cross the Anduin...

When Denethor realised that the black flood was going to come, it was too late for a fleet; repairing the wall was faster and cheaper (our countries have fought many wars, and employed many wooden ships against each other- they take time to build and are very expensive). It was not an ideal solution, but probably all they thought they had time for.

But, he should have sent ambassadors to all the "good factions" and rulers that he could, there his arrogance and pride hindered him. Or he was blinded by the life-or-death struggle of Gondor. Both he and Boromir speaks as if that is all the bulwark there is against evil and as if evil has only one way af advance. Yet, it is often so; Men are blinded by the now, the importance of here and now instead of thinking broadly and ahead.

The Stewards could also have sent ambassadors with gifts to Dunland, tying that numerous people to themselves before the hostility between them and Rohan grew. It seems to me that though they hated the "Forgoil" for getting Calednarhon, they could probably have been assuaged up until the time of Wulf and Helm. An alliance with both peoples, and between them; would have been a great boon to Gondor as things came to a head. But their lack of trying and then the arrogance of political figures in Rohan and Dunland prevented that for 300 years. That is something Gondor could have done, but did not even try. Despite the fact that the Gondorians that lived in the Ered Nimrais were basically Dunmen and they thus knew of their worth in battle.

And I cannot see how one, based on the sources, can lay blame at the Elves, Dwarves, etc.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

You are grinding your axe again Conon.

-How was Gondor screwed exactly?

-How many Noldor were left in M-E at the fall of Minas Ithil?

-Gandalf's boss? Who? Only Manwë was Olorin's boss. If you mean Cúrunir he was only revealed as a traitor in 3018, by Gandalf.

-As for the Dwarves building Gondor's defences? When exactly? You think the people that built Orthanc and the Othram needed any help? And after the loss of Khazad-Dûm the Dwarves did not have much strength to send to anyone.

-Who says that Elrond with Vilya the Ring of Air can cause floodwaves outside of his own land? It seems to me that it was him and only on his home turf. Gondor was not his home turf. Further, using a Ring that close to Mordor? Would that be wise?

-Aragorn is mortal, as are the Dúnedain. The Barrow-wights are evil spirits summoned by the Witch King (or Sauron then sent to serve the WK), who even says they can be removed by mortals? Blame rather Bombadil, who can and on whose lands they dwell, but who just skips around singing.


Yes, Gondor does most of the fighting after the fall of Arthedain. But Gondor was more powerful, populous and prosperous than the North Kingdom, yet the North Kingdom also fought long before it fell. It is precisely for that weakness that Sauron targets them. Gondor does most of the fighting, cause no one else can. No one has the stregth, except Dale, Thranduil and Erebor at the end of the age, but wait... they have the strength because one of Gandalf's plots succeeded...

For one, the neglect of the events that transpired in Minas Ithil by the Wise was almost criminal.

[Macilrille]

How so Feanoro?

Who could have done anything?

Elrond? Arthedain had just fallen, there was some salvaging to do there.

Galadriel? Hmmm... there was this thing driving the Dorfs out of Moria and by the mere fear it spread, was emptying Lorien.

Olorin, Curunir and ... I forgot Radagast's real name- if I knew it? Read again the tasks of the Istari.

Yes, Glorfindel and a small task force could have made a difference, and yes the loss of Minas Ithil was significant. But at the time there was much else to attend to, and it is likely that only too late did it dawn on the Wise what had actually taken Minas Ithil. We do not know, but we do know there was very little communication. We are after all talking Dark Age or Medieval equivalent here. They could not talk to each other on FB and check Eärnil's status updates- so to speak.