Tolkien General Discussion II

[Thangaror]

To my knowledge the publications of the Grimm's were even made less grim (pun intended) than the oral stories they were based on, and still there're birds picking out peoples eyes, family members tring to kill each other etc.
In a world were life for most was harsh, were poverty, starvation, sex and death was everyday, the modern idea of protecting the child from reality seems not desired, and perhaps the intention even is the opposit. Life is hard, and the point with the stories lie highly on the moral and insights they can provide [correct or not, what we deem or know].
I think here Tolkien are more akin to that older tradition, also more intended to tell a fairytale than a kids tale, and in the same manner as say Mac's fellow kinsman HC Andersen, just read The Little Mermaid or The Little Match Girl, it's harth breaking stories (the former even when with a kind of "good" ending).
Lastly, the Hobbit was released intended for an audience from 8th to early teenage, so while for kids, still not for the smallest kind.

The tales collected and published by the Brothers Grimm never really were supposed to be "children's good night stories". In a way they are the continuation of the old sagas and myths. And neither the old Norse, nor the Greek mythology is particularly nice. Somewhere in my parents house there's a book that tales some quite gruesome folk stories from Sweden.
However, "back in the days" children were different and 16 year-old boys went to war and fought in the trenches. Nowadays, kids are put into a cocoon and some parents would like to drive their car INTO the school to drop their kids off (We walked every day! barefeet through the snow! And it went uphill, both ways!).

With regard to the Hobbit, I remember it was once featured as an audio book in the radio when I was a kid. The Orcs did really scare me.

[Flinn]

a question for ye scholars

do we know anything for sure about the character and temper of Gil-Galad?

[Macilrille]

You think you had it hard Thangaror...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Flinn]

a question for ye scholars

do we know anything for sure about the character and temper of Gil-Galad?

bump

[Ngugi]

bump

Short answer: beside he was named wise (though perhaps deemed second to Elrond), we have indirectly information only: friendly towards Men, brave and apperently polite.

Think our only direct insight in his personality and conduct is from his letter to Mendlur, king of Númenor, handed over by Aldarion, son of the king and friend of Gil-galad, in 883 Second Age:

When Aldarion left the chamber, Meneldur looked at the letter that his son had given him, wondering; for he saw that it came from King Gil-galad in Lindon. It was sealed and bore his device of white stars upon a blue rondure. Upon the outer fold was written:

Given at Mithlond to the hand of the Lord Aldarion King's Heir of Númenórë, to be delivered to the High King at Armenelos in person.

Then Meneldur broke the seal and read:

Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon to Tar-Meneldur of the line of Eärendil, greeting: the Valar keep you and may no shadow fall upon the Isle of Kings. Long I have owed you thanks, for you have so many times sent to me your son Anardil Aldarion: the greatest Elf-friend that now is among Men, as I deem. At this time I ask your pardon, if I have detained him overlong in my service; for I had great need of the knowledge of Men and their tongues which he alone possesses. He has dared many perils to bring me counsel. Of my need he will speak to you; yet he does not guess how great it is, being young and full of hope. Therefore I write this for the eyes of the King of Númenórë only.

A new shadow arises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil Men, as your son believes; but a servant of Morgoth is stirring, and evil things wake again. Each year it gains in strength, for most Men are ripe to its purpose. Not far off is the day, I judge, when it will become too great for the Eldar unaided to withstand. Therefore, whenever I behold a tall ship of the Kings of Men, my heart is eased. And now I make bold to seek your help. If you have any strength of Men to spare, lend it to me, I beg.

Your son will report to you, if you will, all our reasons. But in fine it is his counsel (and that is ever wise) that when assault comes, as it surely will, we should seek to hold the Westlands, where still the Eldar dwell, and Men of your race, whose hearts are not yet darkened. At the least we must defend Eriador about the long rivers west of the mountains that we name Hithaeglir: our chief defence. But in that mountain-wall there is a great gap southward in the land of Calenardhon; and by that way inroad from the East must come. Already enmity creeps along the coast towards it. It could be defended and assault hindered, did we hold some seat of power upon the nearer shore.

So the Lord Aldarion long has seen. At Vinylondë by the mouth of Gwathló he has long laboured to establish such haven, secure against sea and land; but his mighty works have been in vain. He has great knowledge in such matters, for he has learned much of Círdan, and he understands better than any the needs of your great ships. But he has never had men enough; whereas Círdan has no wrights or masons to spare.
The King will know his own needs; but if he will listen with favour to the Lord Aldarion, and support him as he may, then hope will be greater in the world. The memories of the First Age are dim, and all things in Middle-earth grow colder. Let not the ancient friendship of Eldar and Dunedain wane also.

Behold! The darkness that is to come is filled with hatred for us, but it hates you no less. The Great Sea will not be too wide for its wings, if it is suffered to come to full growth.

Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

[Flinn]

ahh mommy as usual you proved to be the Master here

so one can guess that he was a balanced, polite, brave and wise ruler, just like all his sires in the line of Fingolfin

[Thangaror]

You think you had it hard Thangaror...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

Oh bummer!
How could I dare and stand up to Monty Python.

[muller227]

@Flinn the later lineage of Gil-Galad has him of Finarfin's line not Fingolfin's look at HOME. We also know that though he received two rings he did not use them he parsed both out to Cirdan and Elrond. His late lineage has him the son of the House of Finarfin I forget which brother and a Sindarin Noble Lady. Which explains his right to rule over the Sindar and Noldor that remained after the War of Wrath. CT in comments thinks this an important problem in the Silmarillion and one he regrets publishing.

[Flinn]

thanks muller

I was aware of this fact of the lineage, although from the point of view of his character (what was concerning me), doesn't change anything.

[JJJaikishan]

Good Morrning, How arrre we all. I have a wee bit of a question, ifff you wouldn't mind giving me a few moments of your time!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, we all know that Elendil escaped in 9 ships with the faithful, and landed in Middle Earth, and established the realms of Gondor and Arnor. These realms existed for some 100 years, before Sauron marched to war against them.
My question is, what is the approximate number of Men, that escaped in these ships, and if lets say 3 generations of these men fought in the last alliance, what would be their approximate number be?
Because we know that after the war, 200 men of Arnor marched with Isildur, and these were the very crux of the remnant of the armies of the Dunedain.

[Veteraan]

I think we should take in account the number of (faithful) people that already were living in ME.

[Mhaedros]

Good Morrning, How arrre we all. I have a wee bit of a question, ifff you wouldn't mind giving me a few moments of your time!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, we all know that Elendil escaped in 9 ships with the faithful, and landed in Middle Earth, and established the realms of Gondor and Arnor. These realms existed for some 100 years, before Sauron marched to war against them.
My question is, what is the approximate number of Men, that escaped in these ships, and if lets say 3 generations of these men fought in the last alliance, what would be their approximate number be?
Because we know that after the war, 200 men of Arnor marched with Isildur, and these were the very crux of the remnant of the armies of the Dunedain.

Well I won't speculate in how many people each ship could carry (or how many died during the crossing), but you have to keep in mind Middle Earth was already colonised by Numenoreans. I'd assume most of the people who fought during the Last Alliance were dunedain that had settled in ME before the Fall. (I said I wouldn't speculate, but I can't imagine a ship carrying more than a couple of hundred people, but then again Numenorean shipbuilding technology may have been different from what we imagine them to be. Maybe they were the size of aircraft carriers )

[Lortano]

Well, Ar-Pharzon's ship was called the 'Castle of the Sea' so maybe it was literally the size of a castle? Which would be seriously impressive and suggest that smaller ships would be able to carry at least a few hundred or so.

[Calypze]

I wonder a little bit about the cultures of the Easterlings and the Haradrim.

Though servants (or at least allies) of Sauron, they were not bound by his will like the orcs. I also suppose that they had a warlike culture, akin to historical warrior-peoples like the Huns or Mongols or Vikings.

But how much of an influence did Sauron's evil have upon them? Did their cities and towns have, say, music? Did they have normal human relationships to each other (family, love-life and so on), or had Sauron's influence twisted them away from such things?

[Ngugi]

We know that not all are evil* or , so there's no reason to assume the vast majority were not acting as any human do, and that they had families just as other Men:

The revolt planned and assisted by Marhwini had indeed broken out; desperate outlaws coming out of the Forest had roused the slaves, and together had succeeded in burning many of the dwellings of the Wainriders, and their storehouses, and their fortified camps of wagons. But most of them had perished in the attempt; for they were ill-armed, and the enemy had not left their homes undefended: their youths and old men were aided by the younger women, who in that people were also gained in arms and fought fiercely in defence of their homes and their children.
- UT; Cirion and Eorl...

Yet she was now poor and without aid, save that she was succoured secretly by a kinswoman of Húrin named Aerin, whom Brodda, an Easterling, had taken as his wife;
- about Morwen, Silmarillion; Of Túrin Turambar

Still the ones most directly influenced by Sauron would lost their human qualities, just as only parts of the Orcs where blindly obedient when directly controlled, though when the will of Sauron was not on them, most would shape up:

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. ... But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them ... the Orcs recovering had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.
And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction.
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope. But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. But the most part fled eastward as they could; and some cast their weapons down and sued for mercy.
- RotK; The Field of Cormallen

All in all, since Tolkien write from a strict Western people's perspective (it's their history; as in England's honestly, where also viking's were invaders from the East and normans and french from the South), the peoples East and South basicly only enter the stories when in conflict, not leaving much information about anthropology.
Music? You can bet they had music, that in form existed even in Mordor, and was used in the hosts under Mordor control (with Haradrim and Easterlings in it):

Then suddenly the cry of brazen-throated trumpets was heard: from the watch-towers they blared, and far away from hidden holds and outposts in the hills came answering calls; and further still, remote but deep and ominous, there echoed in the hollow land beyond the mighty horns and drums of Barad-dûr.
- TTT; The Black Gate is Closed

Ever since the middle night the great assault had gone on. The drums rolled. To the north and to the south company upon company of the enemy pressed to the walls. There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mûmakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines. ...
- RotK; The Siege of Gondor

but what it would sound like is completly up to imagination.
That's at many points JRR's style, that have the advantage that since it allow as well as force the reader to make up his own images and understanding in lack of information, the reading experience become very personal as much of the story arrive from within the mind of the reader; but for anyone looking for actual infomration, it's not much to gain, and mostly nothing at all.


* Don't know how much to add to since when you asked the last time?
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13874383

[Soviet]

Were the Orcs at all upset about being controlled by Sauron? Were they created solely to serve him and Morgoth?

[Ngugi]

To tired to present any academical discussion about it, but here are the quotes I think that shall provide you a full and dynamic picture, from which you may form your own understanding.

Were the Orcs at all upset about being controlled by Sauron?

Many were, mostly obediant because of fear and imposed hate, but we shall not underestimate their insight that if Sauron was defeated they would be in trouble too.

`We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah! ' said Shagrat. `Like old times.'
(...)
'... But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too. ...'
- Gorbag to Shagrat, TTT; The Choices of Master Samwise


The leading orcs came loping along, panting, holding their heads down. They were a gang of the smaller breeds being driven unwilling to their Dark Lord’s wars; all they cared for was to get the march over and escape the whip.
- RotK; The Land of Shadow


As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
- RotK; The Field of Cormallen

The last quote concern those groups who were directly mentally dominated, indeed (see quotes on that topic further down).

Were they created solely to serve him and Morgoth?

The origin of Orcs is never actually concluded, and a field of great controversy hehe, but we can presumably conclude that the Orcs we know from the Second and Third Age are beings in origin Children of Illuvatar, who were both suffering their fate and delighting in the evil they indulge themselves in, because of the taint of Melkor that they are infused with (their evil is thus not 'merely' a social matter or genetic matter, but a teological, which many forget about).

And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.
- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor


See 'Melkor'. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear).
Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).
- Myths Transformed; VIII; Orcs


They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds.
They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if Morgoth and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands. They sometimes fought [> They hated one another and often fought] among themselves, to the detriment of Morgoth's plans.
- Myths Transformed; X; Orcs


It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.
This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done.

...But [Sauron] had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence.
Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.*

(* [footnote to the text] But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another.)
- Myths Transformed; X


Morgoth though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upon the orks, and still more upon the other far more formidable creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers of mind that Morgoth's overthrow became possible.
Thus the greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of his immediate thought and concern, and while that was removed they relapsed into independence and became conscious of their hatred of him and his tyranny. Then they might neglect his orders, or engage in [text end]
- Myths Transformed; X

[Calypze]

Elves are immortal and become adults after 50-100 years.

Dwarves have an average lifespan of 200-250 years. How long does it take for dwarves to become adults?

[Ngugi]

From 30 to, seemingly more often, about 40 years;

Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240.
- HoME 12; DUrin's Folk

though apperently still at 60+ they were considered young men;

"I knew Thorin, of course; and I wish I had been there, but I was away at the time of your first visit to us. And I was not allowed to go on the quest: too young, they said, though at sixty-two I thought myself fit for anything."
- Gimli, UT; The Quest for Erebor; Appendix

[SuperTechmarine]

Good Morrning, How arrre we all. I have a wee bit of a question, ifff you wouldn't mind giving me a few moments of your time!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, we all know that Elendil escaped in 9 ships with the faithful, and landed in Middle Earth, and established the realms of Gondor and Arnor. These realms existed for some 100 years, before Sauron marched to war against them.
My question is, what is the approximate number of Men, that escaped in these ships, and if lets say 3 generations of these men fought in the last alliance, what would be their approximate number be?
Because we know that after the war, 200 men of Arnor marched with Isildur, and these were the very crux of the remnant of the armies of the Dunedain.

Funny you should say that, I was just discussing that with Feanaro.

If we assume an Alcarondas is the size of a carrack (Considering the description, and the fact that Numenorians were ocean-faring with these ships, something galleys, galleons and other galls would have a hard time doing), the number of its crew, the space gained if you remove the cannons (Which obviously Elendil didn't have), you come to a number of around 600 possible crew members, plus whatever civilians Elendil could fit in and you might have a number of 700-1000, mulltiply this by 9 and you have the number of Dunedain that came with Elendil to Middle Earth.