Tolkien General Discussion II

[Morifea]

In the last preview to "The Last Alliance" our lord and Saviour Ngugi wrote that Cirdan was requested by the Valar to stay behind in Beleriand.
Thats the first time I`ve heard about that, where was this information found?

I didn`t want do offtopic the Submods thread, therefore here

[Ngugi]

Haha, well least tries to be a useful source of information and capable modder ^^
Not odd if you have not, unless you've studied the History of Middle-earth books. Most who read any of the twelve books have read the two first, The Book of Lost Tales part 1 and 2; though of actual interest for the Middle-earth we know today are instead book 10-12. Those are up there with the Appendicies, Unfinished Tales and the Letters for good insights.
It is in the 12th book a short chapter about Cirdan where this information is given:

It was during the long waiting of the Teleri for the return of the floating isle, upon which the Vanyar and Noldor had been transported over the Great Sea, that Cirdan had turned his thoughts and skill to the making of ships, for he and all the other Teleri became impatient. Nonetheless it is said that for love of his kin and allegiance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost and did not come to the shores to depart from Middle-earth.
Thus he forfeited the fulfilment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwe and his own nearest kin. Alas, he did not reach the shores until nearly all the Teleri of Olwe's following had departed.

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressea ere it vanished into the West.
Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.'

But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.'

'I obey,' Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.

As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship which after apprenticeship to Cirdan, and ever with his advice and help, Earendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.

[Morifea]

Well, then I`ve read it some years ago and simply forgotten.... time to reread the HoME I think it is
I`ve bought the first two books in german when I was young, since those are the only one translated... The rest came later, it rivals my "All in one Sheakespeare" in my bookshelf in shear Volume.
Have some rep for it.

Another question, since you often quote Tolkiens Letters, is there a puplication of those? Can`t remember if those are in the HoME...

[Ngugi]

Glad to be of service

Most of them are in print, yes, in a book with a practical name, hehe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Le..._R._R._Tolkien
Some are not, possibly because they were found later on, though I'm only have in mind the letter to Mrs Munby that mention Orc women* and IIRC one about a map, that was referred to in this thread some time ago.


* http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_to_Mrs_Munby

[Araval]

Amazon LOTR shared a pre-rohan map: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/...74ca1b9997.jpg

[Ngugi]

Nice

[Araval]

Map update: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/...f2bbdbb4a1.jpg

I haven't seen the usage of Laurelindórenan for a very long time. I wonder what are their intentions.

[Mhaedros]

That, the fact that Rohan is marked Calenhardhon and there is no mention of Gondor, makes me think the series will - at least partly - be set in the second age!

[Ngugi]

My guess is that they will go with an Aragorn-centered series, as rumoured (it's the most certain investment due to his popularity and interaction with other characters & realms), but with his linage comes a lot of history of course so we will get quite a few "flashbacks" to the Second Age; Númenor, Celebrimbor and the making of the Rings + War between Sauorn and the Elves, Sauron captured by Ar-Pharazon, the Faithful and the fall of Númenor and Last Alliance.

[King Athelstan]

I very much hope they stay away from the Shadow of Mordor/War storyline/arc thingy....

[Revan The Great]

Interesting that the map goes further East than is traditionally portrayed, featuring some sort of mountain range and large (Fangorn-sized) forest in the far East. To my knowledge these are inventions, and no concrete geographical information past the Sea of Rhun is known... presumably they wouldn't be invented if they didn't feature some sort of significance in the story.

[Morifea]

The big Forests of Enedwaith and Minhiriath are already gone, therefore not in the early second age.

[Araval]

PJ also had them on the map he used in his movies but they didn't have any significance in the story: https://wallpapercave.com/wp/PQVpQko.jpg Clearly, they were inspired by PJ's map.

[Arachir Galudirithon]

They have also opted for Tolkien's preferred 'Enedhwaith' over Christopher's preferred 'Enedwaith'. Suggesting perhaps they might stay truer to the story?!

It'll be interesting to see if any character ever says it though and whether they pronounce it as dh or as the hard d.

[athanaric]

They have also opted for Tolkien's preferred 'Enedhwaith' over Christopher's preferred 'Enedwaith'. Suggesting perhaps they might stay truer to the story?!

It'll be interesting to see if any character ever says it though and whether they pronounce it as dh or as the hard d.

I hope you're right, but experience with movie adaptations (particularly if they involve battles and/or Medieval settings) has taught me not to be optimistic.

[Morifea]

I recently wondered, on what lanquage the Black Speech of Mordor is based upon?
For most of the other lanquages in Tolkiens work there is material in the HoME, but I can`t remember anything about the Black Speech.

[athanaric]

I recently wondered, on what lanquage the Black Speech of Mordor is based upon?
For most of the other lanquages in Tolkiens work there is material in the HoME, but I can`t remember anything about the Black Speech.

I'm not sure either, some of the words seem to suggest that it's an agglutinative language in terms of grammatical structure. There's some other superficial similarities to Turkic languages, or at least that's my subjective impression and a linguist who gave a lecture on Tolkien's languages said something similar. I think it's not necessarily a given that "x fantasy language is based on y real language", though. Especially when dealing with a top tier "language inventor" like Tolkien.

[Ngugi]

Unknown AFAIK, lest Infidel144 or Galudirithon have better insights, but here's what I know is known, plus Alexandre Nemirovsky's interesting "hittite/hurrian theory": https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/orkish.htm

[Ar Adunakhor]

Hello,

What was Sauron's intentions regarding the three Elven rings? Did he just desire to corrupt the ring's user like the Nazgul or could he draw power through them as well?

[Morifea]

athanaric & Ngugi: Thank you both. Sounds very intersting, the turkish is imo on point.... can`t be a coincidence that Nazgul is a given Name in Turkey :-)

@Ar Adunakhor: Elves can`t be corrupted like Men, neither the Dwarfs. He was also not able to controll the elvish rings, since he wasn`t involved in their creation.
As far as I know the elvish ringbearers took of the rings as a precaution.