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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2801
    Dude with the Food's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by insolent1 View Post
    Sauron knew about Golum(and captured him iirc) which means he(it) understood that there where creatures that didn't fully succumb to its power, but I suppose he(it) didn't expect them to actually have the willpower to destroy it(which they didn't but fate sorted that out).
    Although I think Sam would have had the willpower to destroy it since he had only being affected by it for a short time.
    As soon as he found out about Gollum, he captured him, tortured him and sent the nine out to find the Shire. Gollum was the wake up call and it was then that he realised some poeple could withstand his power.
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  2. #2802
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I doubt Gollum falls under the category of people who resisted the Ring; he turned a muderous, raving, obsessed Ring-junkie who as far as Sauron could see was obsessed to get his 'Precious' back.
    If anything Gollum must confirmed to Sauron that anyone who carry the One will NOT be a threat to It, but a subjuect to It trough need of It and craving for It.
    Last edited by Ngugi; August 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM.


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  3. #2803
    insolent1's Avatar Munifex
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    He resisted part of the power of the ring(and probably one of the most important parts), in that he was under no/limited influence to see it returned to its creator.
    I suppose we will never really know if it had this power but it is hinted that it does have this power.

  4. #2804
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    I doubt Gollum falls under the category of people who resisted the Ring; he turned a muderous, raving, obsessed Ring-junkie who as far as Sauron could see was obsessed to get his 'Precious' back.
    If anything Gollum must confirmed to Sauron that anyone who carry the One will NOT be a threat to It, but a subjuect to It trough need of It and craving for It.

    I am with you on that one. And it seems to me, we are missing the point; which is (I think).

    Like every other being Sauron percieved the world from his perspective, interpreted igt according to his nature and character. And even if he understood that other beings are different, he would still analyse their actions and options from that perspective- cause he had no other. He was not able to reflect and understand. Herein lies the big difference to Olorin, who could indeed understand evil and look into other beings' hearts; IE, analyse, reflect from another perspective than his own and understand.

    But I believe that the good professor both points out a profound truth and a lesson for us all. One that postmodern humanist theory was to rediscover in the mid-nineties; that we ALL do this to some extent. We all percieve, analyse and understand from our own pespective and understanding of the world; which again comes from our character, which again is formed through life by what Bourdieu labels our "Habitus".

    Whatever Sauron's Habitus was, he could see what they were doing, as in their moves, but he was blind to their plan, for he could not understand that anyone could want to destroy The One instead of using it.

  5. #2805
    Funeh's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Did sauron think of himself as good person? That he is doing this all for better cause, that middle earth would be better under his rule?

    And what about Evil men? why did they follow him? Out of fear? or because they did not know the western manners, and only knew the sauron, powerful god?
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  6. #2806
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I would add also that Sauron not to any knowledge we have expected the Ring to make the bearer such a slave to the One that the bearer would be a mere servant who walked over to Sauron with it, rather it was obvious the One made the bearer greedily posessed of it (which actually is quite counter-productive what It's aim of returning concern, it had to betray Sisildur and abandon Gollum, however good that otherwise is to keep It safe).
    Sauron went at length with sending his Nazgűl fetching the Ring, since these were the only agents he had who he could trust would actually without a doubt bring It to him.
    At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
    (...)

    They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master.
    - UT; The Hunt for the Ring
    Last edited by Ngugi; August 28, 2014 at 05:33 PM.


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  7. #2807
    RuleBritannia's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Sauron had no need to keep 'Ring destroyers' out. That someone who got it would like to destroy it, instead of keep it and use it for their own needs and at any rate avoid to fall for the massive influence of the One, was not a risk he considered. Quite right too, still while reason was on his side fate just was playing against him.
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  8. #2808
    insolent1's Avatar Munifex
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I don't think it was pride that Sauron suffered from as it had been defeated(but not vanqished) many times and while he was able to rise again, those defeats would have had an effect. He had no problem fleeing from Glorfindel which would make me think pride was not an issue for it.
    I think Melkor showed some signs of pride but considering how powerful it originally was that is not surprising.

  9. #2809
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by insolent1 View Post
    (..) He had no problem fleeing from Glorfindel which would make me think pride was not an issue for it.
    (..)
    Perhaps this is a story I don't know about. However I suspect you got Sauron and the Witch King mixed up here.

    Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.

    Eńrnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered

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  10. #2810
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    Did sauron think of himself as good person? That he is doing this all for better cause, that middle earth would be better under his rule?

    And what about Evil men? why did they follow him? Out of fear? or because they did not know the western manners, and only knew the sauron, powerful god?
    Someone might correct me on this, but as far as I recall Sauron did genuinely think he would change the world for the better, at least originally. He was obsessed with order and stuff and sought to impose his dominion over everything to bring order, but as time went on he got more and more malicious. As for the evil men, they had various motives. Many were lied to, or served out of fear. Others because they hated the west, often for legitimate reasons, and Sauron offered them a chance at revenge. I'm not actually sure why the Black Numenoreans served him though, aside from maybe greed.
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  11. #2811
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
    Someone might correct me on this, but as far as I recall Sauron did genuinely think he would change the world for the better, at least originally. He was obsessed with order and stuff and sought to impose his dominion over everything to bring order, but as time went on he got more and more malicious. As for the evil men, they had various motives. Many were lied to, or served out of fear. Others because they hated the west, often for legitimate reasons, and Sauron offered them a chance at revenge. I'm not actually sure why the Black Numenoreans served him though, aside from maybe greed.
    The Black Numenoreans? Religious allegiance most likely. Being the High Priest of Melkor gains you lots of points.

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  12. #2812
    Funeh's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
    Someone might correct me on this, but as far as I recall Sauron did genuinely think he would change the world for the better, at least originally. He was obsessed with order and stuff and sought to impose his dominion over everything to bring order, but as time went on he got more and more malicious. As for the evil men, they had various motives. Many were lied to, or served out of fear. Others because they hated the west, often for legitimate reasons, and Sauron offered them a chance at revenge. I'm not actually sure why the Black Numenoreans served him though, aside from maybe greed.
    Thanks!

    As my other question, is it true that Saruman wanted to ally with Sauron, so he will dominate world with him and then betray him?
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