Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

Slaves, yes. Mindless, no.

It should suffice that you read the two lines right before to understand that it's the WK's personal reflection.

But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to him not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien.

[♔atthias♔]

Slaves, yes. Mindless, no.

It should suffice that you read the two lines right before to understand that it's the WK's personal reflection.

yeah but I dont have the book here far to costly in my country you see
that is why I only know the last sentence
thanks for the answer btw
greetings atthias

[Thangaror]

Or he was smugly confident that nobody else there - mortals - would live to see his words proven wrong. If I was a reincarnated immortal who had killed a Balrog in hand to hand combat I'd be making insane prophesies too. He must have been absolutely stoked when it all came true.

Insane prophecies... I can almost imagine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmyuE0NpNgE

Mmm, I do wonder how many times however they're not self-fulfilled or simply so obvious they have to come.
Like Elrond's foretelling that Narsil was not to be reforged until Sauron returned again - well yeah, the pieces are in his posession, he could just withold them till it fitted his prophecy.
And Mando's Prophecy of the North/the Doom of the Noldor: "Obviously, you're screwed. Your king is fey and have a hate-paranoid relationship to the other leaders, you intend to fight an immortal Vala, who have hosts and is known as the Master of Lies, while your base of operations will be among or taken from other folks that you often don't get along with. Daah."

There are just a few real prophecies I know of. One is concerning the Witch-king, the others were spoken by Malbeth the Seer concerning Arvedui being the last King of Arthedain and about the Paths of the Dead. Everything else I'd consider foretelling or prediction, not fully-fledged prophecies.

Especiall the so-called "Prophecy of the North" is much more a judgement spoken by the Valar, and most of those "predictions" are simply precautions and actions the Valar have taken or will take or matter of fact statements.'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

[Ngugi]

Have you seen The Hobbit? Not the 1966 one!

An entertaining bit of Tolkien adaptation history this, even if it was mostly an economial strategic move hehe. I will not spoil anything of it, but expect the story as you never heard or seen it before



Full link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqbdpbDwVo


More info: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Hobbit_(1966_film)

[Mhaedros]

Ahahaha, Slag the Terrible? That's fantastic

[Flinn]

Have you seen The Hobbit? Not the 1966 one!

An entertaining bit of Tolkien adaptation history this, even if it was mostly an economial strategic move hehe. I will not spoil anything of it, but expect the story as you never heard or seen it before

now I hate you, you made me reconsider PJ's work

funny adaptation, although it was only for copyright reasons, it wasn't that bad; it made me think of the original Star Wars though (even if this was much earlier)

[Dude with the Food]

At least Tauriel was cut out and I liked Beorn getting more screen time.

[TheRomanRuler]

Just wondering, did Rohan have any "real" infantry, aka professional infantry trained and supposed to fight on foot from the beginning? Or did they just dismount cavalry when necessary? Or maybe some cavalry was just mounted infantry?

[Bercor]

Not sure about "professional", since, from my understanding, the majority of Rohan soldiers were conscript levies (just like any feudal army), but in The Two Towers book, the army that goes to relieve Hornburg siege, leaded by Erkenbrand, is composed solely by infantry (unlike in the film, where we are shown a cavalry force leaded by Éomer).

There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords were in their hands. Amid them strode a man tall and strong. His shield was red. As he came to the valley's brink, he set to his lips a great black horn and blew a ringing blast.​

[TheRomanRuler]

Thanks
+repped

[Mhaedros]

Can't find the quote for ya, but during the battle of the Isen (from Unfinished Tales) they were fighting dismounted as well IIRC.

[Thangaror]

Just wondering, did Rohan have any "real" infantry, aka professional infantry trained and supposed to fight on foot from the beginning? Or did they just dismount cavalry when necessary? Or maybe some cavalry was just mounted infantry?

It seems that apart from small forces like the Guards of the King's Hall and the personal retinue of some Nobles, like Éomer and Erkenbrand, there were few real soldiers in Rohan, the army consisted of conscripts mostly. It's not stated wether there were real infantry units, but the Rohirrim did of course fight on foot if this was required. It's striking that they didn't field any infantry on the Pelennor, neither did Eorl during the Battle of Celebrant. However, in both cases time was precious and infantry wouldn't have made it in time anyway, but these are the only two battles on an open field described in the books.

I guess that Rohan's army was made up from only cavalry, at most there was something like mounted infantry (or dismounted cavalry...).
A pitched battle like at the Fords of Isen demands the use of infantry, you need 'boots on the ground'. To which degree Erkenbrand's men can be considered infantry or if they had simply lost their horses, I cannot say.


Military in Gondor appears to be slightly more professional and not that much organized around a person but rather an administration of sorts, featuring a city watch (?), the Guards of the Citadel, the Rangers etc. (Beregond certainly IS a full-time soldier) although here too, most of the men that come to defend Minas Tirith are conscripts.

[Bercor]

Can't find the quote for ya, but during the battle of the Isen (from Unfinished Tales) they were fighting dismounted as well IIRC.

And, if I remember correctly, the surviving Rohirrim, at one point of the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, dismount their horses and make a last stand shieldwall against the combined armies of Mordor and its allies, as Éomer judged it the best way to die.

PS: Actually, now that I read it again, it seems that they didn't actually dismount and made the shieldwall, as, in that moment, Aragorn arrived (making Éomer change his plans). Still, it shows that the Men of the Mark were not opposed to fight on foot.

[Flinn]

IIRC the Marshals, the King and all other higher officers of Rohan had their own Eored, which was composed roughly of 120 horseman each. Basically, Rohan army was composed solely of horseman, the majority of which surely where highly trained, although not professionals on the modern sense of the term; this does not exclude of course the presence of levies/militia along the limited numbers of settlements Rohan held, none the less Theoden clearly spoke of "spears" when he considered the force of his army, which is a sinonimous of horsemen IMO.

[Ngugi]

Hello Tolkien friends!

The first video post was lost in the server crash so here it is again, but now also with the second and final part. They are summaries of the history of the Second Age of Middle-earth, by JRR Tolkien.
I made them for the mod DCI: Last Alliance's sake, but since it's a lore matter, I post it here as well for those who are into lore and have not interest in DCI:LA.

Especially as it's a fairly unknown period, but rich on events:
The Eldar establish kingdoms east of the Ered Luin, on Númenor the Edain folks merge into the Dúnedain, Sauron rises as a new Dark Lord, the Rings of Power are created and great wars follow from that, the Dwarves become hated by Sauron for their loyalty to the Noldor, the Númenóreans become corrupted and much more.
Great characters, as for example Gil-galad, Galadriel, Celebrimbor the Ringmaker, Ar-Pharazôn who capture Sauron, Elendil of Arnor and his son Isildur of Gondor, interact against a panorama of over 3000 years.

I hope this shall be an opportunity to get reminded of, or for the first time experience, that - perhaps even a fun such one

Best regards
Ngugi


NOTE: The history presented is concise but comprehensive, and in accordance with what I consider a credible version: because just as with real history, we're in the situation with many, sometimes contradicting, sources. And what sources has precedence, and when or in what details, is open for lore debates.

Lore Videos

[Thangaror]

Eärendil: "OMG! OMG! The evil faction is OP! HELP!"

Manwe: "Sorry dude, this is hard coded. You could cheat though..."





Haha, part 2 at 18:25:

Ngugi: "They are wise lords..."
Elendil: "Hey Gilly! is about to go down."

LMAO!



I was wondering, you mentioned the Princes of Belfalas. I always thought the influence of the Faithful hadn't spread this far by this time. The earliest reference to Dol Amroth and its rulers I can remember is the tale of Nimrodel and Amroth, mentionig how Imrazor married Mithrellas. I found "Of Cirion and Eorl" given as source at Tolkien Gateway, stating that the ancestors of Imrazor had held the title "Prince" since Elendil's days.
Can you confirm this?

[Ngugi]

Glad it enterained ^^


The Numenoreans who had settled around Anduin and to the northwest were the Faithful;

[The Elf-friends] alone came now ever to the north and the land of Gil-galad, keeping their friendship with the Elves and lending them aid against Sauron; and their haven was Pelargir above the mouths of Anduin the Great. - Akallabeth


Isildur and Anárion were borne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin, that flows out of Rhovanion into the western sea in the Bay of Belfalas; and they established a realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the Northern Kingdom was named Arnor. Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Númenor had established a haven and strong places about the mouths of Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Númenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

§13 Now the people of Elendil were not many, for only a few great ships had escaped the Downfall or survived the tumult of the Seas. They found, it is true, many dwellers upon the westshores who came of their own blood, wholly or in part, being descended from mariners and from wardens of forts and havens that had been set there in days gone by; yet all told the Dunedain were now only a small folk in the midst of strangers.
- HoME 12; The Languages at the end of the Third Age

We know Belfalas was one of the settled areas, from one of the two accounts Tolkien give us on the origin of the Princes of Dol Amroth. They appear as contradictions.
I quote JRR and Christopher here, on a note about that there's a "Prince of Dol Amroth" referenced in the year 2510 Third Age;

39 The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title. It was given to his ancestors by Elendil, with whom they had kinship. They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth (named after the last King of Lórien). [Author's note.]

- Elsewhere it is said (p.260) that according to the tradition of their house the first Lord of Dol Amroth was Galador (c. Third Age 2004-2129), the son of Imrazór the Númenórean, who dwell Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, one of the companions of Nimrodel. The note just cited seems to suggest that this family of the Faithful settled in Belfalas with a stronghold on Dol Amroth before the Downfall of Númenor; and if that is so, the two statements can only be reconciled on the supposition that the line of the Princes, and indeed the place of their dwelling, went back more than two thousand years before Galador's day, and that Galador was called the first Lord of Dol Amroth because it was not until his time (after the drowning of Amroth in the year 1981) that Dol Amroth was so named.

A further difficulty is the presence of Adrahil of Dol Amroth (clearly an ancestor of Adrahil the father Imrahil, Lord of Dol Amroth at the time of the War of the Ring) as a commander of the forces of Gondor in the battle against the Wainriders in the year 1944 (pp.306-7); but it may be supposed that this earlier Adrahil was not called "of Dol Amroth" at that time.

While not impossible, these explanations to save consistency seem to me to be less likely that than of two distinct and independent "traditions" of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth.

- UT; Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan: Cirion and Eorl; Notes

Personally I belive in the combined theory, and that there is no contradiction beside in name (while I won't oppose Christopher in that to much detailed mending to make them work together is not needed). So, in short;
The linage of Princes began in the Second Age prior to Gondor was established, and became princes after 3320 SA, I presume then known as 'princes of Belfalas' (because that's where they are refered to come from, and because we do not know what Dol Amroth was called before it was named Dol Amroth). They became 'Princes of Dol Amroth' at some point around/after 1981 Third Age when Amroth drowned in the Bay of Belfalas.

[Thangaror]

Great, thanks.
I was confused. I was aware that Dol Amroth did of course exist before 1981 TA, though it had another name. However, I remember that Gondor struggled for quite a while with the Natives. Until the reign of Tarannon Falastur (~900 TA), Gondor at least had no real power in more remote parts of the realm, or didn't really bother to claim places like Pinnath Gelin.

I do know that bel, or sometimes bêl, is neither Sindarin nor Adûnaic, but of pre-númenórean origin.

[Ngugi]

Aye, it's a matter of ambigiouty; me and Beorn discussed it way back concerning DCI, and I agreed on his conclusion that south of the White Mountains, the land in the west of Belfalas was not incorporated until Tarannon. I however also think (perhaps Beorn too, can't recall) Gondor until Tarannon also included the land east of Morthond to the north, and that because I assume Isildur put the stone at Erech inside of his realm and not outside of it.
There's no definitive answers AFAIK.

According tol Encyclopedia Arda JRR at least at one point suggested it was Sindarin, but I do not know how these etymological texts are valued compaired to each other, especially as there're no sources; http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/belfalas.html

[Thangaror]

Yeah, it's really far from crystal clear...

Concerning the Stone of Erech, however, there is no ambiguity that the Men of the Mountain had a well-established kingdom of their own, and maintained their independence even after they became vassals to Isildur. Since Erech also is neither Adûnaic nor one of the Elven tongues (just as is the case for Lamedon and Arnach), I'm pretty sure that Erech at this time was outside Gondor's borders. And Isildur placed this huge stone for the very special purpose to remind his new vassals to whom they had sworn fealty (it's like Charlemagne cutting down Irminsul, only the reverse).