Tolkien General Discussion II

[Flinn]

Not that I know off, and as I interpret it they had lost all power.

Me too, but then, why bringing them to Aman if they became completely powerless? That would be nice to understand.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Me too, but then, why bringing them to Aman if they became completely powerless? That would be nice to understand.

Emotional attachment? Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond liked their bling?

[Flinn]

it could be, but IIRC Gandalf himself said that the Three have to pass away

I don't know, maybe such powerfull items, even deprived of their "magic", were considered too dangerous to remain in ME; potentially, they were the only Rings of Power still left (assuming that both the Nine and the remaining ones of the Seven were destroyed at the fall of Barad-Dur) and so the Valar commanded them to be removed from ME in order to end this matter once and for all, although it is purely fictional on my side.

I wonder if Tolkien said anything about this issue in one of his letters or unpublished drafts.

[Ngugi]

On that they lost their power we can say Yes;

The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended.
- Gandalf, RotK; The Steward and the King

When the Great Ring was unmade and the Three were shorn of their power, then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle-earth, never to return.
- Appendix A

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.
...Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.
(...)
But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

On why they were brought, perhaps personal affection indeed, there's also historically importance and value that can't be ignored; examples of how both can play in are seen when Noldor left Aman;

Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of those Fingon was the foremost; but at the rear went Finarfin and Finrod, and many of the noblest and wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city, until the lamp of the Mindon Eldaliéva was lost in the night. More than any others of the Exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss they had forsaken, and some even of the things that they had made there they took with them: a solace and a burden on the road.
- Silmarillion

At end, it was their Rings, they had got them as gifts and owned them, so they had no obvious reasons to just leave them or give them away.

[Veteraan]

THIS ^^, the emotinial attachment Feanaro mentioned and:
I suppose being the work of Celebrimbor, they were beautiful objects in their own right even when the power they once held was gone.

[Flinn]

So it seems that there are no confirmed info from Tolkien.

Personally I tend to believe that they had to be removed in order to end that issue once and for all, but of course other theories are valid too.

My distorted mind vs quoting machines: 1-0

[Ngugi]

I fail to follow?

Tolkien confirmed that the Rings had no power once the One was destroyed, and they lost it before the Bearers went across the sea (my underlinings):

When the Great Ring was unmade and the Three were shorn of their power, then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle-earth, never to return.
- Appendix A

(Definition of shorn)

They were simply splendid jewlery at the end of LotR, so then what issue exist to end?

[Flinn]

err I meant the reason behind the fact that they have to leave from ME, not about the fact that they lost their power

... but IIRC Gandalf himself said that the Three have to pass away

If memory serves me, it happens around the end of the book.

I must be wrong here of course or deceived by my old used mind or maybe my question wasn't clear at the begenning, but supposing that they must leave, there is nothing written by Tolkien himself on the reason why, no?

[Thangaror]

My preciousssss... elrond, elrond.

[Ngugi]

Mhm, now I follow; not quite sure about where there would be a part where Gandalf say the Rings must pass away, feel free to point it out if I miss the quote, so I suppose you have this in mind then?

'The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended.'
- Gandalf, RotK; The Steward and the King

It do not mean that the Rings has to pass away however, but that the Ages where High-Elves were to be found in Middle-earth is passing as well as most other Elves over time, when the space for many 'mytological' creatures diminish, that from now on the Dominion of Men begin and that the Tree Rings has also lost their power. The ending of the Silmarillion-book:

White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Círdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey. In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever. And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Círdan had made ready. In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond, until the seas of the Bent World fell away beneath it, and the winds of the round sky troubled it no more, and borne upon the high airs above the mists of the world it passed into the Ancient West, and an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song.

- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

The Three helped create refuge in ME for Elves, where Time did not affect them and Elves liked to stay in ME in, but these strongholds now lost that force. Thus the Fading Years ended after the Three became plain jewlery, when the age of Men began after/at the end of LotR;

Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time. Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond, in the fair valley of Rivendell, upon whose house the stars of heaven most brightly shone; whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth. But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan knew to whom it had been committed.Thus it was that in two domains the bliss and beauty of the Elves remained still undiminished while that Age endured: in Imladris; and in Lothlórien, the hidden land between Celebrant and Anduin, where the trees bore flowers of gold and no Orc or evil thing dared ever come. Yet many voices were heard among the Elves foreboding that, if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy it; but in either chance the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin.

And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; and the Three have passed away, and with them the Third Age is ended, and the Tales of the Eldar in Middle-earth draw to then-close. Those were the Fading Years, and in them the last flowering of the Elves east of the Sea came to its winter. In that time the Noldor walked still in the Hither Lands, mightiest and fairest of the children of the world, and their tongues were still heard by mortal ears. Many things of beauty and wonder remained on earth in that time, and many things also of evil and dread: Orcs there were and trolls and dragons and fell beasts, and strange creatures old and wise in the woods whose names are forgotten; Dwarves still laboured in the hills and wrought with patient craft works of metal and stone that none now can rival. But the Dominion of Men was preparing and all things were changing, until at last the Dark Lord arose in Mirkwood again.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[Macilrille]

If I owned something made by Celebrimbor, I would keep it- magic or not- only to give away at need or to someone I loved.

[Flinn]

Few more doubts then:

Why the Three had lost all their power when the One was destroyed? Sauron never participated in their creation, so we can assume that there wasn't any of his "essence" imbued in them (differently with all the other groups of rings).
The Elves themselves were not completely sure of what could have happened after the destruction of the One, we are told that most probably they would lost their power (as it happened), but then, why? This point is still obscure to me

On the other hand, if both Gandalf (when Frodo put the One on Amon Hen) and Galadriel (she said to Frodo how many times he used the One when they met in Lorien) were able to percieve or know when the One (and possibly be in menthal contact with the bearer) was used, how is it that they never understood it was the One in 80 years? I might be missing something crucial here, otherwise I can't see how they missed this.

tnx

[Veteraan]

I'm not sure why the rings lost their power, but as I understand it though Sauron never "touched" them, they still were made using (part of) the knowledge Celebrimbor gained from his teachings.

As to Gandalf and Galadriel not realizing the master ring was being used, perhaps it's because they only became aware that the one indeed had resurfaced fairly recently. Also it seems like Sauron himself could not even detect it's use (which is even stranger) let alone realize it was the One, perhaps he still lacked the strength to do so. Or, speaking of (mental) strength, it may very well be that the stronger the bearer, the easier he could be detected.
It seems that when Frodo used the ring during the quest, it almost immediately attracted the attention of Sauron. This in turn might also have made Galadriel and Gandalf (more) aware Of it.
The ring had been used for much longer than 80 years by the way, my preciousss!

Perhaps the Scandinavian lore posse can shed some more light on this. There might be a tintilating letter or HoME quote about this subject out there!

[Ngugi]

Why the Three had lost all their power when the One was destroyed? Sauron never participated in their creation, so we can assume that there wasn't any of his "essence" imbued in them (differently with all the other groups of rings).
The Elves themselves were not completely sure of what could have happened after the destruction of the One, we are told that most probably they would lost their power (as it happened), but then, why? This point is still obscure to me

The Elves did not made the Rings on their own, Sauron guided them, and obviously the design came with a catch: that the One was so constructed, and so powerful, that any Ring of Power was subjected to it.

Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
... But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.
- Of the Rings of Power...

Sauron did not have to have his hand in their making himself as long as the smiths behind them followed his costruction, and the construction had the inherent weakness.

On the other hand, if both Gandalf (when Frodo put the One on Amon Hen) and Galadriel (she said to Frodo how many times he used the One when they met in Lorien) were able to percieve or know when the One (and possibly be in menthal contact with the bearer) was used, how is it that they never understood it was the One in 80 years? I might be missing something crucial here, otherwise I can't see how they missed this.

tnx

For others to sense that a/the One Ring is in use apperently require skill and power - and it seems, that the bearer of the One actually tries to contact [and, in Sauron' case, dominate] the others.
It do apperently not suffice to simply wear It, to get in "Ring contact" with other bearers.

`I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them? '
`You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others
- FotR; The Mirror of Galadriel

And if Bilbo and Frodo did not actively tried to use the Ring to get in touch with other Rings, then they would presumaby "pass each other by" without noticing. Time and space obviously do not apply as in the physichal world.
Galadriel's knowledge ought to have come trough correspondens with Imladris while Frodo stayed there (we know there were), and/or since Galadriel could read much of their minds, thus illuminating Frodo's past story. He did not want to hide this infomration at any rate.


EDIT: The question about why the 3 lost power is quite easy to answer actually: it's magic.
Always appriciated JRR never went wild with magic, it's rare and apperently following some rules. But magic still is not science.
But to know why the 1 affected the Rings we must ask other questions, to understand a how the Rings ever even got power and through/from what source, but we do not have that information; it's magic ^^
It is suggested, can't check if confirmed now, that Sauron tapped the dispersed power of Morgoth for the One.

[Flinn]

tnx, I have great parents, don't I?

Plain and clear for the matter of the Three losing power; so actually, the fact that Isildur did not destroy the One was in a certain sense a blessing for the Elves, as so they could spend 3000 years in ME with the support of their own Rings.

I still remain in doubt about the reciprocal avareness of ring beares; surely Celebrimbor immediatly knew about Sauron wearing the One, so we can concur that the stronger the power of the claimer, the easier will be for the others to spot him. And we can also say that beeing aware of who owns a ring, surely helps (both Gandalf and Galadriel knew that Frodo had the ring). I suppose that beeing a mortal, an elf or a Mayar (although incarnated) would also change the way the Rings interacted with them (i.e. mortals becoming wraiths). None the less, the Ringwraiths felt the presence of the One and Sauron himself seemed to be quickly aware of Frodo when he used it at Amon Hen, so it was mainly by luck that Frodo succeeded in his quest (or by fate )
Furthermore, I deem that how many times you used it (or for what purpose), also influences the chances of being spot.

Any more thoughts?

[Veteraan]

@Ngugi (junior got a post in before I could)

This part of your quote is quite clear IMO.

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.

I'm intrigued by the notion that Sauron could have used the dispersed power of Morgoth. This part of your quote seems to contradict that though:

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;

The concept of Sauron using Morgoth's "magic" power seems to indicate that this power never gets lost but more, like energy, just changes form/location. And that it could be reused even. I see a possibility (or nightmare) of many new books and movies being made based on this premise. If the appropriate copyrights could be obtained of course.

[Ngugi]

You do

Plain and clear for the matter of the Three losing power; so actually, the fact that Isildur did not destroy the One was in a certain sense a blessing for the Elves, as so they could spend 3000 years in ME with the support of their own Rings.

Yup; ironic but true.

I still remain in doubt about the reciprocal avareness of ring beares; surely Celebrimbor immediatly knew about Sauron wearing the One, so we can concur that the stronger the power of the claimer, the easier will be for the others to spot him. And we can also say that beeing aware of who owns a ring, surely helps (both Gandalf and Galadriel knew that Frodo had the ring). I suppose that beeing a mortal, an elf or a Mayar (although incarnated) would also change the way the Rings interacted with them (i.e. mortals becoming wraiths). None the less, the Ringwraiths felt the presence of the One and Sauron himself seemed to be quickly aware of Frodo when he used it at Amon Hen, so it was mainly by luck that Frodo succeeded in his quest (or by fate )
Furthermore, I deem that how many times you used it (or for what purpose), also influences the chances of being spot.

We should note that we are told that the Elves became aware of Sauron, not of the One Ring itself, when he first put It on. That I deem to be a significant difference. It may thus (even likely considering Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo or Frodo) be so that if somone else had put it on the Elves would not reacted, because there would not be someone who tried to [or could] dominate them or try to establish a link to them trough the One. What i mean is that they may not reacted to the existance of the One until someone like Sauron put it one with teh purpose to control them.

In the light that the Nazgül could track the One we can assume that It had a "signature" that was notiacble for those who are in the 'other world'. Still we do not know if any other who wore a Ring could recognise this "signature". Neither Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf ever wore their Rings while Sauron used the One, and afterward no one who carried It tried to establish contact with them trough the One. Gandalf apperently was only aware that the Hobbits used a Ring, and that it was a minor Ring possibly; even if Bilbo used it in his presence the "signature" told Gandalf nothing.

The only clear implication is that it can be apperent that a person use a Ring, but we can not assume that the observers know what Ring it is someone use based on any "signature" a Ring provide. Personally I think that Sauron tried establish contact and dominion over the Elven lords when he put the One on, and that revealed him, but unless the bearer of the One tried to eastablish contact it was unknown to all other Ringbearers that somone carried It - or they should been aware troughout the Third Age about Gollum etc.
We also lack infomration, AFAIK, that it was possible for any of the other Rings to establish contact with any of the other Rings, so it may be a part of the uniqe features of the One.
That Gandalf knew about the Ring is however not strange, as Bilbo told him about his find, and Galadriel and Elrond were Gandalf's close confidents, but for long they apperently did not know, only Gandalf feared as he knew about the Ring, even if Bilbo had went around using the One at his leasure in the Shire during a long time:

'Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.'... `I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.'
`We were all at fault,' said Elrond, `and but for your vigilance the Darkness, maybe, would already be upon us. But say on!'
`From the first my heart misgave me, against all reason that I knew,' said Gandalf, `and I desired to know how this thing came to Gollum, and how long he had possessed it. So I set a watch for him, guessing that he would ere long come forth from his darkness to seek for his treasure. He came, but he escaped and was not found. And then alas! I let the matter rest, watching and waiting only, as we have too often done.
`Time passed with many cares, until my doubts were awakened again to sudden fear. Whence came the hobbit's ring? What, if my fear was true, should be done with it? Those things I must decide. But I spoke yet of my dread to none, knowing the peril of an untimely whisper, if it went astray. In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.'
- FotR; Council of Elrond

Sauron was only aware of Frodo using the One on Amon Hen when Frodo directed his mind towards Mordor.

But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul. and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
- FotR; The Breaking of the Fellowship

When Sam later used the One at Cirith Unghol, a couple of times, Sauron was not alerted.

@ Veteraan
Here we go:

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits....


Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)
It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans).
For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)

- HoME 10; Morgoth's Ring; VII, (ii)

I would interpet the topic as that Sauron used Morgoth's remaining essence as a resource to enable some of his cunning tricks, but non the less that most of the Ring's power came from Sauron himself; still it may be so that all Rings being crafted my tainted materia of Arda provided a link between the Rings that Sauron knew how to use?

[Withwnar]

...if both Gandalf (when Frodo put the One on Amon Hen) and Galadriel (she said to Frodo how many times he used the One when they met in Lorien) were able to percieve or know when the One (and possibly be in menthal contact with the bearer) was used...

Did Galadriel know at the time of the wearing? Perhaps this is only something that she perceived when she later saw Frodo's thoughts upon their meeting.

What state was Gandalf in at the time of Amon Hen? Still in 'spirit' form? That might be why.

[Veteraan]

Very interesting. I knew that Morgoth had somehow "injected" his being into the matter of Arda itself, but this quote I had not seen before. It's like a sort of radiation present in all sorts of matter, but not equally divided. Or perhaps another analogy, gold is the preferred choice for transferring "evil magic" like copper is for electricity. Silver would be used a lot by the good guys then.

Perhaps the dwarves love of gold was not only fueled by the Seven then. Having a lot of gold would expose you to a large amount of Morgoth essence, which even when it's passive in nature can't be good for the soul.

This is IMO in a way even worse than the concept of the original sin. Nobody in Arda can escape the tainting by Morgoth, except perhaps by death.

[Flinn]

@ Ngugi

if somone else had put it on the Elves would not reacted, because there would not be someone who tried to [or could] dominate them or try to establish a link to them trough the One. What i mean is that they may not reacted to the existance of the One until someone like Sauron put it one with teh purpose to control them.

Very good point. Absolutely the nature of the One had to play a role on how it worked with regards of percieving and beeing aware of it.

When Sam later used the One at Cirith Unghol, a couple of times, Sauron was not alerted.

err that's was actually one of the most puzzling moments about this very issue; I suppose that the reason why one used the Ring would affect if anybody could "feel" it or not. Sam was trying to save Frodo, while when Frodo himself was at the Crack of Doom, he actually claimed the Ring.

@ Withwnar

IIRC Galadriel actually told to Frodo how many times he used the Ring before he arrived in Lorien. (For reference, that should be the Mirror of Galadriel chapter, in which she also warned him not to use It anymore).
And yes, I think Gandalf was still lying on the top of the Endless Stair when he helped Frodo to take out the Ring at Amon Hen, and already in his new "form", although Gandalf was a Mayar so he could have received other powers to help his friends, not related with possessing or not one of the Three.