Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3041
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    He he he he...

    Ware the net, books are best ;-)

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Finished SILMARILLION.

    A few questions:

    1. Why did the Valar waited so long to defeat Morgoth? If Melkor was so easy to be brought to his knees by their host, why didnt they sail out of their warm home in Valinor and chain him sooner?
    2. Was the Curse of Mandos that important that they had to wait for it to take its course?
    3. If Ancalagon is supossed to be huge (enough to flatten a mountain) how big was his father?
    4. Can Morgoth return from the void?

    This is it, for now.
    Last edited by Lord of the Drunk Penguin; February 12, 2015 at 01:11 AM.


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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    1 and 2. Last time the Valar confronted Melkor, it well-night destroyed Arda. The Valar was loath to risk that again, especially with the Second Children of Eru just awoken, in order not to damage them. There is also the "They made their bed, let them lie in it" argument, which is also inherent in Tolkien's catholiscism. And lastly, it was fated (and there would have been no story without it). You should also recall that the more of Morgoth's power he put into stuff, the lesser he became. And even in his lessened state a mountainchain was levelled and a large landmass was submerged.
    3. Ancalagon was huge, but it needs not be physical size that crushes mountains, recall that Gandalf and the Balrog destroyed Durin's Stair over Moria. Ancalagon was the Mark II of Dragons, and its pinnacle.
    4. He will, it is so ordained. Melkor shall return from the void for the last battle, Turin shall (in some versions) smite him with his black sword and revenge his family's wrongs, and the world shall be remade by the Secondcomers as Eru originally intended it.

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    As Mac' put it.
    Though it should be noted that the War of Wrath went on for 48 years before Morgoth was defeated (even if the published Silmarillion make it feel like it take a few days), so it was no walk in the park for the might of Valinor to defeat the Dark Lord even when he was at his personally weakest stage (though greatest as ruler).

    Here's some extracts concerning 1, 2 and 4 (as well as 3 if deduced), from History of Middle-earth #10, section 'Myth's Transformed', different subchapters.
    Take some time reading this, and you will improve your insight quite a lot about Morgoth's terrible and powerful relationship to the world/Arda as well as how and why the Valar acted as they did;
    Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf.'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). (He was to make / devise / begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.)

    Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.
    The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.
    But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a powerlevel with the Valar.

    The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
    Either Manwe must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'.
    But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.* As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.


    (* [footnote to the text] Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)
    Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings.
    Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

    But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwe's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's.

    Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda.
    It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.

    Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent.
    This appearance of selfish faineance in the Valar in the mythology as told is (though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think only an 'appearance', and one which we are apt to accept as the truth, since we are all in some degree affected by the shadow and lies of their Enemy, the Calumniator.
    ...
    The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement.
    Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil.

    If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.
    And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.


    The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision.
    The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.


    The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.
    It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his selfimposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed troyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.
    That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
    In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwe was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron.

    We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.


    The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally away from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices - but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.
    of Melkor was the end of 'Morgoth' as such, and for that age (and many ages after). It was thus, also, in a sense the end of Manwe s prime function and task as Elder King, until the End. He had been the Adversary of the Enemy.
    Last edited by Ngugi; February 14, 2015 at 08:48 AM. Reason: ducplicated sections removed

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sometimes Christopher's ability to analyze and interpret his father's mythology amazes me.
    Taking what he says into account, and I think he's completely right, this actually petty quarrel about some fancy stones is put on a whole new level.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Drunk Penguin View Post
    Finished SILMARILLION.
    I'm planning on buying the Silmarillion, actually. Do you recommend it? I'd love to read about stuff that happened before the LOTR. Maybe even why Gandalf, Saruman and the other wizards came to Middle Earth?

    EDIT:

    Also, do you guys recommend reading the books (LOTR, maybe even the Hobbit) when I already saw the movies?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    My personal take on this:
    If you like reading and are not afraid of books that have a lot of pages, try it. Nowadays it seems fewer and fewer people do and are.

    I would definitely recommend reading LOTR if you have become interested in Tolkiens world. Of course you will already know much about the story, but IMO it is a much "richer" experience to read it than to watch the movies. There is much more to be found in the books than what the movies covered. Also you may notice that there are quite a lot of small and sometimes big differences between events in the movies and in the books.

    Then there is the matter of where to start, Hobbit, LOTR or Silmarillion?

    The Silmarillion can be a tough read. It consists of a lot of different stories about a wide range of subjects. Not everything in it will appeal to everybody, but if you want to read more "about stuff that happened before the LOTR" this indeed is the book of choice for you. However, I would first read the LOTR. Contrary to the Silmarillion it is one (big) story and it is much more "accessible" IMO.
    Perhaps it is best to start with the Hobbit though. It has only 250 pages and is a good introduction to the world of Middle Earth and also to Tolkiens writing style. However, don't forget it is a children's book. I quite like the Hobbit, but to me it is not at all at the same level as the LOTR is.
    Last edited by Veteraan; February 13, 2015 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by postm00v View Post
    I'm planning on buying the Silmarillion, actually. Do you recommend it? I'd love to read about stuff that happened before the LOTR. Maybe even why Gandalf, Saruman and the other wizards came to Middle Earth?

    EDIT:

    Also, do you guys recommend reading the books (LOTR, maybe even the Hobbit) when I already saw the movies?
    I'd thoroughly recommend it. I saw the LotR movies first, that's what got me interested in the series in the first place. Shortly after seeing Return of the King in the cinema, I dusted off my mother's old copy of The Hobbit, and that was my first Tolkien book. That was definitely the best intro I could've had to the series, as I was about 14 years old at the time and probably would've been a bit daunted at the prospect of reading the full Lord of the Rings (I wasn't a big reader back then). A couple of years later I bought the Silmarillion which, while fascinating to me, I didn't really understand; it's not a light read by anyone's definition. I'm approaching my mid-twenties now and I'm planning to re-read it soon; having recently finished reading the Lord of the Rings books for the second time, I'd say I'm now in a much better position to understand what the hell's going on. It isn't one straightforward story by means, but a sort of telling of myths and feuds and personal stories against the backdrop of the events of the First Age of Middle-earth, which encompasses its creation and the war against Morgoth.

    Ultimately you're the best judge of whether you think you'll enjoy jumping straight into the Silmarillion or reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings first as a way into that world. But personally I would recommend the latter and back what Veteraan said.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by postm00v View Post
    I'm planning on buying the Silmarillion, actually. Do you recommend it? I'd love to read about stuff that happened before the LOTR. Maybe even why Gandalf, Saruman and the other wizards came to Middle Earth?

    EDIT:

    Also, do you guys recommend reading the books (LOTR, maybe even the Hobbit) when I already saw the movies?
    If you prefer a plastic rose to a real one, a picture to the sunrise with its smells and sounds and dew on the leaves, or a w*nk to a real woman's warmth, then stick to the LoTR films (the Hobbit I shall not mention, it is even more an abomination). Peter Jackson has taken poetry and turned it to dross, dragged it through the mire of his small, dirty mind.

    Is that answer enough?

    Read LoTR, then The Hobbit (or the other way round), then Silmarillion, then Unfinished Tales and The Children of Hurin. Then all the History of Middle-earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thangaror View Post
    Sometimes Christopher's ability to analyze and interpret his father's mythology amazes me.
    Taking what he says into account, and I think he's completely right, this actually petty quarrel about some fancy stones is put on a whole new level.
    Indeed he's masterful at it, though so folk do not get confused, all I quoted are JRR's writings, not Christopher's.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thanks for all the advice. I don't have a problem with books with a lot of pages, I also read all the GoT books so I'm kinda used to it.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Don't expect Tolkien's writing style to be anything like Martin's, otherwise you might be disappointed. Tolkien's works are, in my opinion, "heavier", if you know what I mean, than say ASoIaF, but, at the same time, more interesting and rich.
    Last edited by Bercor; February 14, 2015 at 03:11 PM.

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    One is explicit, the other subtle. I like both, but Tolkien is of much- much more quality and refinement. Martin (and Jordan, and Feist and most of all Salvatore) will describe things in details, so you get their interpretation. Tolkien writes in little detail about anything but geography and history, therefore you form your own picture, your interpretation, which will be different from mine, which again will be different from Bercor's, etc. Hence Tolkien is great literature, while Martin is entertaining literature. Tolkien can also be read like history, Icelandic Sagas, etc, and it will enrich your reading to do so.

    Enjoy, you will find Middle-earth a treasure, and one that you will visit again and again, and each time you will find something new and enthralling. I have read LoTR and The Hobbit over 300 times in the last 30 years, Sil over a hundred, UT over fifty, and they still reveal new details on occasion.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    IMHO on the books:
    1. The Hobbit is a children's book and best as an introduction to Tolkien's books if younger (8-12) or not so keen on long books. Unlike the PJ movies, it is a fun adventure with very little combat and quite a few fun or funny moments. It is told from the point of view of a naive hobbit going out to experience the world, so as to appeal to children.
    2. LOTR is the best introduction for 12+ and comfortable with longer reading. It is a sweeping drama and fantastic for those with imagination who don't need every detail of every scene described. Probably after seeing the movies this will be a benefit to get full experience. As someone mentioned there are some minor and some dramatic deviations between the books and the movies. Of all, Fellowship of the Ring movie is the closest in feeling to the books and makes the least changes for PJs own version of how events should have been, or might 'improve' for dramatic effect. Of course there are quite a few cuts from the story to the movies (which are OK), but the books are far more uplifting and less negative about human nature than PJs versions. Some people find the LOTR start a bit slow, but keep reading and the story accelerates nicely and just keeps giving.
    3. If you finish LOTR and want more, then read the Silmarillion and you will get far more depth and understanding of the backstory. It starts with a pseudo judeo-christian creation story, which may or may not appeal, but in any case once you get past this, the door opens to an even more epic and dramatic story than the LOTR. You will need good imagination as huge events are often told in a few pages and interspersed with very deep and personal stories.
    3. There are the Appendices in the LOTR - personally I would recommend to read these after the Silmarillion as they will then make better sense.
    4. There are also various other works like Unfinished Tales, Lays of Beleriand, that fill in various gaps in other stories etc. and a volumes and volumes of additional writings about Tolkien's reasoning behind his stories, as quoted above. Personally I like the stories themselves and preferred not to know every nuance of every reason Tolkien did A instead of B. But then again I don't like watching behind the scenes of movies, etc. as somehow for me it ruins the suspension of disbelief...

    If you like Tolkien's books and hunger for more epic stories (rather than soap operas like GoT), I would recommend Steven Erikson's Malazan books (Gardens of the Moon etc.).

    Good luck and I am sure you will enjoy the read!
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    on The Hobbit book, I have something to add.

    Although the tone of the book is rather lighter, as a general rule, compared, say, to LotR, I can't help but thinking that stating that this is a children book isn't 100% correct. I read it when I was 30 or so for the first time and anyway after The Lotr and the Silmarillion; I concur that overall the style of jokes and songs looks sometimes childish, but none the less it tells about things (war, slaughters, skinned wolf and beheaded orc, and so on) which I can't really consider to be childish at all. I for sure wouldn't read it to my daughter at the age of 5 or 6; furthermore, the plot itself isn't that linear and I doubt a child would read it alone easily.

    Any thoughts?

    ps. @ Chulain519; my post isn't addressed specifically at you, ofc you are not the only one who said so till today
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Children were different 70 years ago than today. Consider Grimm's stories, etc. Pretty nasty stuff some of it.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    To my knowledge the publications of the Grimm's were even made less grim (pun intended) than the oral stories they were based on, and still there're birds picking out peoples eyes, family members tring to kill each other etc.
    In a world were life for most was harsh, were poverty, starvation, sex and death was everyday, the modern idea of protecting the child from reality seems not desired, and perhaps the intention even is the opposit. Life is hard, and the point with the stories lie highly on the moral and insights they can provide [correct or not, what we deem or know].
    I think here Tolkien are more akin to that older tradition, also more intended to tell a fairytale than a kids tale, and in the same manner as say Mac's fellow kinsman HC Andersen, just read The Little Mermaid or The Little Match Girl, it's harth breaking stories (the former even when with a kind of "good" ending).
    Lastly, the Hobbit was released intended for an audience from 8th to early teenage, so while for kids, still not for the smallest kind.
    Last edited by Ngugi; February 17, 2015 at 12:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    on The Hobbit book, I have something to add.
    Although the tone of the book is rather lighter, as a general rule, compared, say, to LotR... I for sure wouldn't read it to my daughter at the age of 5 or 6; furthermore, the plot itself isn't that linear and I doubt a child would read it alone easily.
    Any thoughts?
    I agree (hence suggested 8-12). I read when around that age and then again more recently (which is many years later) and probably enjoyed more because I now recognise the value in its lighter style. All this musing has me tempted to read again (and LOTR, Silmarillion, etc.) and purge the hobbit movie from my brain.

    I think overall it shows the masterful writing prowess of Tolkien that he could write such varied styles and each with great eloquence!

    On the broader issue of age of children's exposure to the 'realities' of the world, I have mixed feelings. I would prefer we strive to become more civilised, rather than just accept the mistakes of our ancestors - unfortunately the opposite appears to be true today and I would imagine Tolkien himself would be horrified at the acceptance of graphic violence and glorification of warfare portrayed today. I would argue that bringing your children up on a diet of reading (or listening to you read) any books is far preferable and enriching to the other forms of media (apart from music) they will inevitably be exposed to today.
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  19. #3059
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    good points there gents

    I guess it is also a matter of cultural differences; here for instance war stories are unlikely told to childrens (at least it was so in my youth, now with tv and all the other stuff we don't really need to teach anything at all to our childrens).
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  20. #3060
    Boogie Knight's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Wasn't The Hobbit written by Tolkien for his children when they were suffering from scarlet fever? Might've been yellow fever. One of those. Either way, from what I understand he'd write a chapter in the day/night and then read it to them in the evenings to help them get to sleep. As mentioned, children's publications like Grimm's fairytales provide us with a good indicator of what life was like for children back then; not because children lived in those worlds, but because they grew up in worlds where the lessons and horrors of those stories would have resonance and (to rip a word right out of Tolkien's foreword to LotR) applicability.

    As an example, my grandfather grew up a few miles away from where Tolkien and his children would've grown up in England. IIRC he's one year younger than Christopher Tolkien (he'll turn 91 next month). In 1939, his 10-year old sister contracted yellow fever and died following complications from that. That was extremely common at the time; England still had a high infant mortality rate from disease. A few months later the second world war started, and it wasn't long before he was carted off for National Service just as the bombs started falling. That's a world in which stories of morality, horror, and hope against all odds would have a supreme amount of relevance.

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