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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2561
    Flinn's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    jumping in quite late, I know

    on the matter of the genocide (I would call it epuration anyway ..) of Numenor, I think we should keep in mind that the invasion of Aman itself was just the last and most foolish action of numenorean's kings; as a matter of fact they enstranged themselves from the Valar and the Elves much before the captivity of Sauron

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Soon the Númenóreans came to become proud and discontented, irritated by the Ban of the Valar. Starting to lose the meaning of the Gift of Men and of immortality they longed for Eldamar which they saw only from distance.
    About 1800 they started to dominated the shores of Middle-earth and demand tribute from the lesser peoples which they had liberated and taught, and became a massive brutal maritime empire that had no rival. Fearing death, they tried to gain some immortality in riches and ornate tombs. Tar-Atanamir started to speak openly against the Valar.



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    2,032 Ban of the Valar is questioned, Eagles abandon Meneltarma
    2,251 Elven tongue is forsworn in Númenor by King's Men
    2,960 Gimilzôr born, Elven tongue abandoned in Númenor




    3,117 Míriel born, Elves no longer permitted entrance to Númenor, Elven tongue forbidden in Númenor
    3,177 Death of Ar-Gimilzôr, Tar-Palantir takes Sceptre, Civil War in Númenor, Prophecy of the White Tree given



    these are just but few examples on how the things went worse during many hundred years, plus we also have to consider that they have been warned various times by many means (the eagles abandoning Numenor, the death of the White three, the storms hitting the ships, some direct warnings, etc), so one can't really say that they have not deserved the end they met, honestly. Finally, the faithfull were spared, and that's why I speak of "epuration", though I know the term has a bad background

    Furthermore, for their own decision, after the War of Wrath the Valar refrained to interfere directly into the "mortal plan" and that's why they called on Eru, who surely took it really bad (being the first time ever that someone dared to attack directly Aman to conquer it), but none the less he also spared the army of Pharazon for the Last Battle, which to me means that despite of everything Eru left a door open for them to redeem (pretty similar to what happened to the Army of the Deads I think). Sauron could have been destroyed to punish him too, but apparently Eru once again retreated his might and left to the Faithfull the duty to avenge and redeem their whole people and to finally ban Sauron, or this is how I see it at least, knowing just a little bit the ideas of the Professor.

    Honestly, if I have to complain about something, is not the harshness of the punishment, but the stupidity of the act(s).

    spinning out: do any of you guys actually ever thought that the Hobbits were specifically "created" to be the best force to oppose Sauron and his way of dominating men? (basically greed, for power, richness or immortality); if a great man like Isildur easily fell under the influence of the ring, both Bilbo and Frodo (not to speak of Sam, who really gave the ring back to his master and was even able to not to be fooled by the visions of power and greatness it gave him) did really well. Of course Eru creates to give life and not to take it away, but I won't see why he would not have kept in mind the "environment" when releasing the hobbits (Aule did pretty much the same)

    my coins

    edit: damn lost internet connection, pretty completely ninjad by dad and mom.. if this is NOT a sign, I don't know what could be called so..
    Last edited by Flinn; April 08, 2014 at 08:32 AM.
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  2. #2562
    Veteraan's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, when you actually do respond, you certainly do it in a grand style. Much more to be found here (and in Ngugi's) post than in mine.

    You probably didn't loose Internet connection but only the connection to this site. It happened to me too (viva autosave!!).
    It happens quite frequently to me and it seems it (amongst a few other problems) has something to do with cloudflare.

    Perhaps it's a sign, but I really have no clue at all what that would be about.
    My favorite pair of QUOTES:
    Ishan:
    Wait for an official answer from Sir GED (site owner)

    leo.civil.uefs:
    What are you talking about? Who is him? Some kind of oracle?
    I've never heard about this, hope my head will not roll over.


  3. #2563
    Ngugi's Avatar The Easter Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    That Flinn don't fall far from the tree?


    On Hobbits;
    Well, Hobbits are quite uniqe unclear in the sense that we know nothing about their origin, other than that they are a race of Men, and all our origin is ambigious too. Hobbit lore is not my strong side, but I doubt they were created in relevant ways different from other humans. They are used as embodiment for (in general but not alltogether) good and benevolent aspects of humanity, while there's dark sides in them too, and thematicly it would lost an important point if they were created in that way and thus were 'non-human' in their being.


    Concerning Isildur I'd like to raise a voice in defence of him, which I assume seldom occur ^^
    While he indeed did became affected enough to not destory the Ring (though that was somewhat sapient and would allow Sauron to return was after all not known), he held it for two years and became no megalomaniac tyrant or alike for all that time. From the top of my mind we know not that it affected him at all, beside that it made him hang on to It.
    Yet indeed at the last battle he was aware of his folly and intended to deliver the One to the holders of the Three.
    Last edited by Ngugi; April 08, 2014 at 09:45 AM.



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  4. #2564
    Flinn's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I'm a defender of Isildur myself, and that's why I said "if such a great man .. "

    on the hobbit: I believe it is intentional if their origin is kept obscure.. the reasons behind could be variuos, but I'll take my speculations for myself, I've not heart for that kind of discussion today

    Perhaps it's a sign, but I really have no clue at all what that would be about.


    That Flinn don't fall far from the tree?
    the mom is always the mom
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  5. #2565
    Veteraan's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    After realizing that I actually do have a copy of Tolkien's letters (in Dutch) that has been standing in one of my bookcases unread for - cough - 30 years, I decided that perhaps now I was mature enough to read it. It will take some time though.
    I did find some interesting bits about Hobbits, which probably already have been quoted in this thread but they seem somewhat relevant to the above posts.

    In the middle of this Age the Hobbits appear. Their origin is unknown (even to themselves)+ for they escaped the notice of the great, or the civilised peoples with records, and kept none themselves, save vague oral traditions, until they had migrated from the borders of Mirkwood, fleeing from the Shadow, and wandered westward, coming into contact with the last remnants of the Kingdom of Arnor. Their chief settlement, where all the inhabitants are hobbits, and where an ordered, civilised, if simple and rural life is maintained, is the Shire, originally the farmlands and forests of the royal demesne of Arnor, granted as a fief: but the ‘King’, author of laws, has long vanished save in memory before we hear much of the Shire. It is in the year 1341 of the Shire (or 2941 of the Third Age: that is in its last century) that Bilbo - The Hobbit and hero of that tale - starts on his ‘adventure’.
    Tolkien letters 131
    +The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men ‘at a pinch’.
    Tolkien letters 131
    The chief way in which Hobbits differ from experience is that they are not cruel, and have no blood-sports, and have by implication a feeling for "wild creatures", that are not alas! very commonly found amongst the nearest contemporary parallels.
    Tolkien letters 154
    My favorite pair of QUOTES:
    Ishan:
    Wait for an official answer from Sir GED (site owner)

    leo.civil.uefs:
    What are you talking about? Who is him? Some kind of oracle?
    I've never heard about this, hope my head will not roll over.


  6. #2566
    Funeh's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

    Ty tu umíráš a máš poslední sen, snad bude tu líp, až příjde ten den, až nad hrobem tvým bude sborově znít - Čechy jsou bílý, je tu pořádek a klid.

  7. #2567
    Veteraan's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?
    Was this perhaps intended for the "Want to play? Quiz..." ?
    Last edited by Veteraan; April 12, 2014 at 02:15 PM.
    My favorite pair of QUOTES:
    Ishan:
    Wait for an official answer from Sir GED (site owner)

    leo.civil.uefs:
    What are you talking about? Who is him? Some kind of oracle?
    I've never heard about this, hope my head will not roll over.


  8. #2568
    Funeh's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    What? Im just asking a question...
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

    Ty tu umíráš a máš poslední sen, snad bude tu líp, až příjde ten den, až nad hrobem tvým bude sborově znít - Čechy jsou bílý, je tu pořádek a klid.

  9. #2569
    Ngugi's Avatar The Easter Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Funeh View Post
    Where does Bilbo go and what does he do when he leaves the shire after his birthday party?
    When he had left Hobbiton he had wandered off aimlessly, along the Road or in the country on either side; but somehow he had steered all the time towards Rivendell. `I got here without much adventure,' he said, `and after a rest I went on with the dwarves to Dale: my last journey. I shan't travel again. Old Balin had gone away. Then I came back here, and here I have been. ...'
    - FotR; Many Meetings



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  10. #2570
    Funeh's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thank you... Just watching the movies right now so this came to my mind
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

    Ty tu umíráš a máš poslední sen, snad bude tu líp, až příjde ten den, až nad hrobem tvým bude sborově znít - Čechy jsou bílý, je tu pořádek a klid.

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