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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #2741
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As Flinn put it.

    A good summary from the Entmoot-forum, to my knowledge (while I have not read Osanwe-kenta this is in line with what I remember from HoME):
    Quote Originally Posted by Elanor Gamgee
    Tolkien discussed Elven telepathy (and telepathy in general) rather thoroughly in an essay called Osanwe-kenta ("Discussion of the communication of thought" in plain old English ) published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, July 1998. I believe that Christopher Tolkien mentions this essay in his notes in HoME XI (should be notes to Quendi and Eldar but I can as well be mistaken); mind-reading is also discussed in the Myths Transformed, HoME X. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Osanwe (though I'd love to) but basically the arguments boil down to the following:

    - All the Incarnates (Men, Elves and self-incarnated Ainur) posess the ability to communicate in thought and to "read minds". This ability varies between the races (Ainur are the most capable, Men the least) and individually within a race (e.g. telepathic abilities of Finrod, an Elf, were comparable to lesser Maiar; but Finrod was exceptional).

    - Not even with the most powerful Ainur, the Valar, the mind-reading ability is complete, i.e. it's impossible to actually perceive someone's mind totally (to know what the person is thinking). Besides, if a person doesn't want to reveal his/her thoughts, he/she cannot be forced to do so. To dominate the others' will by fear or force of any kind in order to make them speak up is wicked; among the Valar Morgoth alone did such things.


    - Certain things would severely decrease telepathic abilities, and some other things would increase them. The most important decreasing factor is the existence of a body; that's why Men and Elves, who are permanently incarnate have lesser abilities than Ainur, who are spirits by their nature. Another major factor is language, because comminicating through words is much quicker and more precise than communicating in thought. Among facilitating factors are kinship/friendship (persons having affection for each other have it easier to communicate in thought); urgency; power of command (e.g. a commander trying to get in touch with the army has bigger chances to get through).
    as well as mentioned RotK, and Silmarillion;

    Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled in tongues; and Felagund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted.- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of Men into the West


    Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
    - RotK; Many Partings
    Though, one of the matters I've encountered is that O-k say this about distance for ósanwe [communication or interchange of thought] and lame [language]:
    Thus we see that the Incarnate tend more and more to use or to endeavour to use ósanwe only in great need and urgency, and especially when lambe is unavailing. As when the voice cannot be heard, which comes most often because of distance. For distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe. But those who by affinity might well use ósanwe will use lambe when in proximity, in habit or preference.
    However, Elves are incarnated, that may be a reason they could not communicate across distances, rather than the distances itself; at end we have no example of incarnates who communicate speechless unless they are close to each other.
    Last edited by Ngugi; July 23, 2014 at 03:45 AM.



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  2. #2742
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II


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  3. #2743
    Jagmodo's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Wow, that's an impressive effort invested in this, and his talent is undeniable.

    EDIT:

    I have pretty straightforward question, and I’ll assume quite easy for you folk here.

    Númenor is known to have been divided in six main regions: Forostar, Andustar, Hyarnustar, Hyarrostar, Orrostar and Mittalmar.

    To which region does Nísimaldar and with it the port of Eldalondë belongs. Is it Mittalmar, Andustar or Hyarnustar?
    Last edited by Jagmodo; July 27, 2014 at 06:11 PM.





  4. #2744
    Flinn's Avatar A Modern Man of Old
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    great link but

    In very 21st century elvish-monk style, he hand-illuminated the text which had been printed on his home Canon inkjet printer.
    well I suppose it would have taken more than 6 months to him to make it all by hands, still it remains a great job
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  5. #2745
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagmodo View Post
    I have pretty straightforward question, and I’ll assume quite easy for you folk here.

    Númenor is known to have been divided in six main regions: Forostar, Andustar, Hyarnustar, Hyarrostar, Orrostar and Mittalmar.

    To which region does Nísimaldar and with it the port of Eldalondë belongs. Is it Mittalmar, Andustar or Hyarnustar?
    Is Nísimaldar technically a part of any region? Not sure, though if it would by any, I'd assume Andustar because it seems to belong to the description of that region more than any other;
    Quote Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales
    The Andustar was also rocky in its northern parts, with high firwoods looking out upon the sea. Three small bays it had, facing west, cut back into the highlands; but here the cliffs were in many places not at the sea's edge, and there was a shelving land at their feet. The northmost of these was called the Bay of Andúnië, for there was the great haven of Andúnië (Sunset), with its town beside the shore and many other dwellings climb*ing up the steep slopes behind. But much of the southerly part of the Andustar was fertile, and there also were great woods, of birch and beech upon the upper ground, and in the lower vales of oaks and elms. Between the promontories of the Andustar and the Hyarnustar was the great Bay that was called Eldanna, because it faced towards Eressëa; and the lands about it, being sheltered from the north and open to the western seas, were warm, and the most rain fell there. At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor, Eldalondë the Green; and hither in the earlier days the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressëa came most often.An about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressëa. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolairë and lairelossë, nessamelda,vardarianna, taniquelassë, and yavannamirë with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents and all that country was full of blended fragrance; therefore it was called Nísimaldar, the Fragrant Trees. Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly, in other region of Númenor; but only here grew the mighty golden tree malinornë reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressëa itself. ... They did not take root in [Grey Havens]; but Gil-galad gave some to his kins*woman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flour*ished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin, until the High Elves at last left Middle-earth; but they did not reach the height or girth of the great groves of Númenor.The river Nunduinë flowed into the sea at Eldalondë, and on its way made the little lake of Nísinen, that was so named from the abundance of sweet-smelling shrubs and flowers that grew upon its banks.The Hyarnustar was in its western part a mountainous re*gion...



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  6. #2746
    Jagmodo's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, I’m not sure either; that’s why I ask. I have read Unfinished Tales some time ago, but it is not really clear. Númenor is most commonly said to be divided in six mentioned regions so I assumed it should belong in one of them.

    If anyone else has an opinion be free to share it. And, thank you Ngugi once again.





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