Page 156 of 156 FirstFirst ... 56 106 131 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156
Results 3,101 to 3,106 of 3106

Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3101
    IBSXYPNTS's Avatar Signifer
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    200

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Calypze View Post
    If Sauron had his way and eventually subdued all in Middle-Earth, what would he do then? How would he rule? Would he permit his servants to live? Would he rule them strictly or leave them to their own devices? Would it make any difference if the orcs or the evil men won it for Sauron?

    I also wonder if the Hashari (Harad light infantry) are lore-based, that is, the order of assassins possibly created by Sauron himself. I couldn't find any references to it ouside of this mod.
    I think he would have ruled over them. I cant see there outright destruction since even if he overran all of middle earth it could take years to find and weed out any remaining resistance. I mean even if he had taken Minas Tirith it could have easily taken years to even completely conquer Gondor and Rohan let alone the others. I think the scenario you speak of would have taken place a decade at least after the lotr storyline. Although at that point im not to sure what would happen.

    Now that I think about it though, I believe it says the Haradhrim and Easterlings serve Sauron out of fear. Perhaps one day they would rise up against him out of greater fear for themselves against his orce hordes?
    Last edited by IBSXYPNTS; May 20, 2015 at 11:16 PM.

  2. #3102
    Ngugi's Avatar Never Tell Me The Odds
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    7,428

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Naturally it would make a difference, anyone who question that have not read Tolkien. Sauron is not someone who 'just desire power' as a mere amibtious bloke but embodies terror and destruction (as often this is not directed at anyone specific, but since the idea of a 'grey' or even 'good' Sauron is raised both now and then, and with at best most questionable lore aguments, and often not even such).
    In general Sauron desired to rule over servants, he want alive servants, but would turned all into an tyrannical theocracy, where the Lord's faithful Men would be Orcs in all but birth, where empathy (even among His servants, or especially among His servants) would be rejected, any opposition oppressed until exterminated and anything but Anarchy disguised as Order prevailed.
    As displayed by some simple quotes:
    And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work.
    (...)
    Now Sauron's lust and pride increased, until he knew no bounds, and he determined to make himself master of all things in Middle-earth, and to destroy the Elves, and to compass, if he might, the downfall of Númenor. He brooked no freedom nor any rivalry, and he named himself Lord of the Earth. A mask he still could wear so that if he wished he might deceive the eyes of Men, seeming to them wise and fair. But he ruled rather by force and fear, if they might avail; and those who perceived his shadow spreading over the world called him the Dark Lord and named him the Enemy; and he gathered again under his government all the evil things of the days of Morgoth that remained on earth or beneath it, and the Orcs were at his command and multiplied like flies..... In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
    - Second Age, Silmarillion

    More ominous were rumours from the further East: the Wild Men were restless. Former servants and worshippers of Sauron, they were released now from his tyranny, but not from the evil and darkness that he had set in their hearts. Cruel wars raged among them, from which some were withdrawing westward, with minds filled with hatred, regarding all that dwelt in the West as enemies to be slain and plundered.
    - early Third Age, UT
    Have to say I like IBSXYPNTS's thought at any rate, it is very Tolkien actually, as one of his core concept is that evil will destory itself [unintentionally], as evil actions pave the way for it's own end.
    Last edited by Ngugi; May 21, 2015 at 02:18 AM.

    Patron of Mank, Kiliç Alì, FireFreak111, MIKEGOLF & Arachir Galudirithon


    DCI: Last Alliance
    - WIP Second Age mod
    | DCI: Tôl Acharn - mighty Dúnedain Counter Invasions |
    Additional Mercenary Minimod - more mercs; for TATW and DCI |Family Tree minimods - lore improvements | Remade Event Pictures - enhance cultures trough images |
    Recomended TATW compilations: Withwnars Submod Collection
    Developer of: The Sundering - a Warhammer Total War experience

    The Kong Commandments
    - 2nd TATW forum comics | van Gondor - a LotR + van Helsing parody | Who Moderates the Moderators? - 1st TATW forum comics



  3. #3103
    IBSXYPNTS's Avatar Signifer
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    200

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Naturally it would make a difference, anyone who question that have not read Tolkien. Sauron is not someone who 'just desire power' as a mere amibtious bloke but embodies terror and destruction (as often this is not directed at anyone specific, but since the idea of a 'grey' or even 'good' Sauron is raised both now and then, and with at best most questionable lore aguments, and often not even such).
    In general Sauron desired to rule over servants, he want alive servants, but would turned all into an tyrannical theocracy, where the Lord's faithful Men would be Orcs in all but birth, where empathy (even among His servants, or especially among His servants) would be rejected, any opposition oppressed until exterminated and anything but Anarchy disguised as Order prevailed.
    As displayed by some simple quotes:


    Have to say I like IBSXYPNTS's thought at any rate, it is very Tolkien actually, as one of his core concept is that evil will destory itself [unintentionally], as evil actions pave the way for it's own end.
    I agree for while the Easterlings and Harardhrim had the enemies of Sauron to face i can totally accept they would do his bidding but what if soon after they began to fear him, for as so far as I recall (which addmittedy I couldnt easily find) They serve him of fear. In my mind he tells their leaders Gondor and the west mean conquest or alternatively as a kind of Genghis (sp) Khan as in they served him out of pure worry what could happen to themselves if they resisted. Now I know its a stretch but as the fourth age continued the elder races left Middle Earth and I believe that the various orcs and trolls and uruks and such would need another enemy. I believe Sauron would have decieved the remaining men as much as possible to buy time. For although Gondor couldnt resist the races of men he helped were very numerous according to lore (again this is from memory correct me if im wrong) now if for instance Rhun occupied all the lands east of the great river they in sheer numbers while not near the orcs could fight with success.

    I wish I could quote the exact paragraph. But I believe it is written that the Southrons and Easterlings were the most fierce of Saurons servants in battle prowess (Perhaps the Uruk Hai were greater but they faught for Sarumon) I mean IIRC during the battle of the Pellannor Fields they were the last and most fierce of the enemies of Gondor. I just think eventually the orcs having ravanged all the rest of middle earth would face off with the Haradhrim and the men from Rhun. Because while they feared Sauron I can believe they feared their own destruction more which is what turned them to the Dark Lord to begin with.
    Last edited by IBSXYPNTS; May 21, 2015 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Spell check is my enemy lol

  4. #3104
    IBSXYPNTS's Avatar Signifer
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    200

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Naturally it would make a difference, anyone who question that have not read Tolkien. Sauron is not someone who 'just desire power' as a mere amibtious bloke but embodies terror and destruction (as often this is not directed at anyone specific, but since the idea of a 'grey' or even 'good' Sauron is raised both now and then, and with at best most questionable lore aguments, and often not even such).
    In general Sauron desired to rule over servants, he want alive servants, but would turned all into an tyrannical theocracy, where the Lord's faithful Men would be Orcs in all but birth, where empathy (even among His servants, or especially among His servants) would be rejected, any opposition oppressed until exterminated and anything but Anarchy disguised as Order prevailed.
    As displayed by some simple quotes:
    I also put forward while Sauron was the evil that binded men Morgoth was the evil based on destruction. Again I have read too many notes and such to put forth a proper debate but I believe Morgoth desired to rule over all creation sauron was more inclined to rules over its created beings. I know that may not make much sense and I appologize for the double post. I always pictured Morgoth as the destroyer and Sauron as the Ruler if that helps any. Its just my own personal interpetation.

  5. #3105
    Signifer
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    The Wessex/Dumnonia frontier
    Posts
    200

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Tolkien used different languages to translate the Middle-earth languages. He obviously used English to translate Westron, or 'Common tongue'.
    As that was a relative of Rohirrim's old language Old English was used for their language and names (thus no coincidence you find an Eomer in anglo-saxon history, or rather an Eomer in Rohirrims). And the Northmen of Rhovanion who were their forefathers and relatives in turn are given names influenced or based on Gothic, to display the historical kinship.
    The Dwarven names are actually, as well known, Norse, and that was explained that Dwarves who were secretive of their own namnes had adapted the languages and names that Northmen in the north were they lived used, again to display the kinship with the other Northmen, but from another era and area.
    However, it shall be stressed, it is only a matter of JRR's "translations", because Westron was not English but completly unrelated to the germanic languages, and Rohirrim did not speak Old English or the Northmen of Rhovanion neither Gothic or Norse. It is simply a linguistic tool to create the proper feeling of the languages as it would be for us and our [English] lingustic history.
    A nice video on the topic is found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NKlr0vRX34


    Beornings were humans, a branch of the Northmen or at the least much mingled with them.
    The ability to skin-change was a feature of Beorn's own family, and we have no hint it was an ability of his folk in general.
    Why their line could shape-shift is never explained, but then again we do not know why the men of Dale could speak to birds either, or why the kings of the Númenóreans are supposed to have 'healing hands' (the latter though inspired by an English tradition, that even claimed this into the 19th century hehe), and so on. It is however closely aligned to the Norse sagas and myths (that JRR knew well) where some humans had the ability (best known as berserkers, though that is not always the term used) and where the ability often was inherited within a certain family. A common theme is that berserkers come in groups that are brothers in Norse sagas.
    That it should have any connection to that the Beornings are related to the Edain is nothing Tolkien suggest or hint at.
    Sorry, yes, I did mean to say that I knew the languages (Old English, Old Norse, Old Gothic etc.) were used to represent the languages of the Northmen/Dwarves etc. rather than them actually speaking those languages. It was the '-ing' part that caught my eye and made me wonder if it meant 'son of' in Middle-Earth, too.

    So when we talk about the Beornings, do we just mean the family and descendants of Beorn, rather than the Edain House of Beor? The shape-shifting thing is fascinating to me, as it's one of those examples of understated magic in Tolkien's work that you can easily overlook if you don't stop to think about it, like I did. I was reading a bit about it elsewhere, and I do seem to remember seeing something about the Elves having something to do with the gift but I can't for the life of me find it now. I also found that Beren apparently had that ability too. Do we know if he was a direct ancestor of Beorn? Or do we know which of the human houses he was from?

  6. #3106
    Flinn's Avatar In Dude We Trust
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,332

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie Knight View Post
    So when we talk about the Beornings, do we just mean the family and descendants of Beorn, rather than the Edain House of Beor? The shape-shifting thing is fascinating to me, as it's one of those examples of understated magic in Tolkien's work that you can easily overlook if you don't stop to think about it, like I did. I was reading a bit about it elsewhere, and I do seem to remember seeing something about the Elves having something to do with the gift but I can't for the life of me find it now. I also found that Beren apparently had that ability too. Do we know if he was a direct ancestor of Beorn? Or do we know which of the human houses he was from?
    some basic knowledge about them

    History

    The Beornings were close kin of the Éothéod, the Woodmen of Mirkwood and the Bardings. Their ancestors were related to the Edain, perhaps akin to the Third House of the First Age. (The house of Marach and Hador)
    After the Battle of Five Armies and the decimation of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, many Northmen gathered around Beorn who became a great chief. It is possible that the Beornings became known as a people through being descendants of Beorn. During the War of the Ring, Grimbeorn, son of Beorn, was the leader of the Beornings.
    The Beornings kept open the passages of the Ford of Carrock and the High Pass in return for tolls,likely clearing the paths from Dale to Rivendell from evil creatures such as Orcs and Wargs.
    In the events leading up to the War of the Ring, the Beornings helped Aragorn, who was taking Gollum to Mirkwood, to cross the Anduin.
    During the War of the Ring, while wearing the One Ring upon Amon Hen, Frodo saw the land of the Beornings aflame, hinting that Sauron's forces had attacked them.
    After the War of the Ring, the Beornings and the Woodmen were given central Eryn Lasgalen by Thranduil and Celeborn.
    source

    furthermore, AFAIK the only hint about Beren changing form is when Lutien used the skin of Draugluin to hide his real nature during their quest for the Silmaril
    Son of the magnificent Finlander, member of the glorious Imperial House of Hader


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •