Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

Welcome to the second edition of the Tolkien General Discussion-thread.

I quote Code_Knight from 1st November 2008;

Well you read the title! Many of you are scholars in this area, so I have made a thread for you to talk about everything Tolkien related. You wanna talk about the length of a dwarves beard, GO for it! You wanna talk about mithril supply to the Elves, please be my guest! If this thread gets big enough, we may even make you guys a sub-forum right here at TATW. Chat away!

- http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ral+Discussion


A great legacy have been provided in the original thread; all from the most general questions to scrutiny of single words in niche matters, all from merry consensus to raging debates, all with interest and love for the world of Tolkien, all in knowledge or ignorance - but what better place gain and share insights in facts and perceptions?


May the Lore commence!

[k/t]

So the old thread will be deleted?

May the Lore be with you!

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

So the old thread will be deleted?

May the Lore be with you!

I don't think so. They decided to just lock it.

[Ngugi]

On topic Fellows, I will make a cleaning up here (some moved to the Hobbit-thread)

to ask for the facts from the books this is the place, to debate weither the adaptation of them into PJ's movie was good or not this is the place http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post12405708


The former thread will be leaved for least a couple of months, but then the policy of delete +10 000 threads is there to enable a faster TWC and help the future migration to better servers, os it's not just for the fun of it things are removed.
In experience however a thread once closed, no matter what people think at the time it is closed, is not reopened and used again.
However it might remain, as exceptions may be granted.

[Formann]

In the fellowship of the ring Chapter 4, "a journey in the dark" Gandalf says that he "once knew every spell in all the tongues of elves or men or orcs...". Does that mean that everyone (including the orcs) have magic, except the dwarves? And where and when did Gandalf learn orcish? I cant really see Gandalf having any dealings with the orcs outside of the killing. Where does this fit in with the pretty low-magic setting that lotr is?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

In the fellowship of the ring Chapter 4, "a journey in the dark" Gandalf says that he "once knew every spell in all the tongues of elves or men or orcs...". Does that mean that everyone (including the orcs) have magic, except the dwarves? And where and when did Gandalf learn orcish? I cant really see Gandalf having any dealings with the orcs outside of the killing. Where does this fit in with the pretty low-magic setting that lotr is?

I wouldn't call it low-magic, just subtle magic.Magic doesn't have to be fireballs and Bigby's fireball of Largeness level 15.

[Ngugi]

Presumably not very complicated; Orcs as a rule use Westron in this part of ME, or the Black Speech, or other languages and words they take form other folks since they develop no language of their own (being destructive [evil] people, Tolkien percived language a matter of constructive capacity), and Gandalf know those languages.

The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days. It is said that they bad no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs, unless it were for curses and abuse. And these creatures, being filled with malice, hating evenn their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes.
So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish. In this jargon tark , 'man of Gondor', was a debased form of tarkil , a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenorean descent;
...
It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he bad desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in the Third Age widespread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor.

- Appendix F

[Count Roger Borsa]

I've got a question about Rohan lore. At the Pelennor Fields it seems to be a big deal when Theoden kills the Harad chieftain ''I felled the black serpent''. Can anyone tell me why the Chieftain was filled with wrath when he saw Theoden, and Theoden also not waiting for his onslaught. Was there some war between Rohan and Harad some years before?

[Pyrrhus the Molossian]

Thats interesting. Or perhaps he had a great or black reputation?

[FC Groningen]

I thought "the great/black Serpent" was the title of the Harad chieftain. In the books, that title came back multiple times. In the game, the faction leader is refered as such too. As allies of Gondor, Rohan often fought beside Gondor as Boromir stated that the only military help came from Rohan when asked. I also thought to remember a passage somewhere that the southron cavalry was there to counter the Rohirrim. Maybe also, Harad or parts of Harad took part in the battle of Celebrant, but I can't recall Harad being present there.

[Alkarin]

In the fellowship of the ring Chapter 4, "a journey in the dark" Gandalf says that he "once knew every spell in all the tongues of elves or men or orcs...". Does that mean that everyone (including the orcs) have magic, except the dwarves? And where and when did Gandalf learn orcish? I cant really see Gandalf having any dealings with the orcs outside of the killing. Where does this fit in with the pretty low-magic setting that lotr is?

Well the orcish tongue was devised by Sauron. It was sort of a corrupt and twisted mockery version of Elvish. And I'm sure if there were any "spells" in orcish it would of been Sauron or one of his lieutenants to be able to use such magic such as the Nazgul or the like. Gandalf probably understood Orcish since a lot of it was stolen from other languages.



I have a question I'd like to clear up, since I no longer have the books I can't check myself: In FotR Gimli always boasts about how Balin would be happy to welcome them into Moria, But I don't recall the Dwarves ever being able to retake Moria before the War of the Ring due to Durin's Bane being present there. So why would Gimli believe they have retaken it and be surprised when they come to find its infested with Goblins? Or was this just a part of the movie?

[Count Roger Borsa]

I'm pretty sure it's part of the movie. Gloin at the Council of Elrond says that for a while they heard good news of Balin's expedition, work had begun, then nothing. So they already knew something was wrong.

[Gandalf.]

They didn't retake it, they set up a colony inside.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

They didn't retake it, they set up a colony inside.

To be exact,they drove the Orcs off, and set in the Chamber of Mazarbul. All went well, they restarted mining and began uncovering ancient secrets. Then one day, Balin was looking at Mirrormere and an Orc shot him. It was killed, but they saw an army approaching. Their numbers were too great and they steadily lost ground. Oin and four others tried to escape, but the Watcher killed Oin and they retreated. Ori was the last one to die, and wrote their history down. Gimli and the others hadn't heard of them in five years.

[Arǭmēz]

About Rohan and the Haradrim who seemed to hate them... at the battle of Poros the Haradrim were defeated by the sons of Folcwine if I remember correctly and an army that came to aid Gondor... so tha Haradrim may have held a grudge against the Rohirrim

[Macilrille]

I am very busy correcting student papers, but a few brief point.

1. The films are not Lore. Forget them, I say again; however much you like the films, they are not Lore.

2. King Folcwine of Rohan fulfulled the oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond, sending meny men to Gondor. With their aid Túrin won a victory at the Crossing of the Poros; but the sons of Folcwine both fell in the battle. The Riders buried them after the fashion of their people, and they were laid in one mound, for they were twin brothers. Long it stood, Haudh in Gwanur, high upon the shore of the river, and the enemies of Gondor feared to pass it. That is the experience the Haradrim has with the Riders of Rohan, by rights they should hate the Gondorians more as they have fought them more often. I rather think his hatred and rage was for someone interfering with the planned siege of Minas Tirith. The fury of someone who sees his nefarious plans disturbed and perhaps thwarted.
3. I believe Balin's group was too small to cleanse Moria entirely; remember, even Gimli was stunned by its size. It is also not any old royal hall they set up Balin's Hall in, but the old Chamber of Records. So as I see it Balin's company cleans a part of Moria, but not all- it is simply too vast. That would also have made them find the Balrog's domain, wherever that is. Which they do not. The Orks then get reinforcements and eventually overwhelm the Dwarves. I do not think that Balin's group cleans all Moria, they cannot. That is the point- and it is just another thing that makes me despise PJ.
4. I am pretty certain Dwarves had spells in their own tongue, but they taught that tongue to no-one, even Gandalf. That would be why Gandalf does not know any.
5. The Black Serpent likely refer to the banner of the same. In medieval warfare cutting down the enemy banner was central. The banner followed the King closely cause that is the only way his people can see where he is on the battlefield and that he is alive, etc. This is reflected in many of the Norse Sagas where cutting down the bannerbearer is a great feat and often synonymous with cutting down the King. Hence it is usually the greatest and most steadfast and brave warrior on the field who caries the banner. I believe that is what Theoden means.

[Ngugi]

2) Agree; the few times the rohirrim and haradrim are known to fought directly do not give any reason to belive there was historical matters to why they got mad (Théoden was fell after all).

3) Moria after all is freaking huge, they ventured all the way to the west gate and who knows how far down, but the settled in the eastern chambers and even if many, many they were far to few to fill but a small corner of the mansion.

5) That applies all the way into the 20th century

[FC Groningen]

In the books, Balin claimed the title of "Lord of Moria" and held it for about 5 years, according to Gandalf. "Lord of Moria" makes me think it's not just an outpost, but claiming lordship over all of Moria. That's also the reason Balin and the rest of the dwarves came there for in the first place. In the book of Mazarbul, it was also noted that the Dwarves started to dig again and would explore various depths, which seems to me they didn't limit themselves to a part of Moria. Also, if you start digging and set up craftship again, I also assume it's to be more permanentely settled and a hard thing to do if you would be in a fight at the same time.

I got the feeling Sauron received word and ordered the attack the moment the Dain refused to the messenger at the gate. Much time has passed between the counsil of Elrond and the fellowship arriving there. It's possible (unless someone got an exact date on when the Dwarves were attacked) that the Fellowship arrived not much later after the attack on the Dwarves. In Lothlorien, Haldir also mentioned a large continent of orcs entering Moria from the south not too long ago.

[Ngugi]

Balin's party arrived 2989 and were all finally killed 2994, 24-25 years before the Fellowship was created.

[Gandalf.]

His throne was in the chamber, but Tolkien Gateway states they did find much treasure and the axe of Durin.