Gen. Schwarzkopf passes away.

[I WUB PUGS]

Someday they'll name a tank after him.

[Sphere]

I thought the Schawrz would be bigger.

[Col. Tartleton]

Here's what I don't get. When the World Community do their obligation to stick their neck out and send their capital and their young men to die or go crazy for the sake of a foreign state who is being mistreated and abused by it's stronger neighbor, or a people by their government, the exact sort of thing idealists expect of a civilized world community of sovereign states who actually give a damn about people in the third world, the left immediately condemns the action as a greedy imperialist war, emboldening our enemies, and setting us up for the perpetual resistance. They tell the insurgents that we are divided and "rotten from within" and will not pursue the necessary course of action if it becomes too lengthy, too expensive, or too bloody.

I mean maybe show some unity and keep those very important discussions to the closed sessions of government. Maybe? Like I want a congress that says no to things an applies critical assessment, but why does it need to be public. Maybe we could remove forces gradually and quietly without setting a "withdrawal date" for everyone to put on their calender. It's a thought.

Now this is IMO irrelevant in practice here, because the USA is so thoroughly whooping the tar out of these guys we don't really need to worry about it. Obama's turned Afghanistan into the first real war of the 21st century and I respect it. We're looking at technologies that may reduce our boots on the ground to purely special forces doing human face work backed up with drone legions that can annihilate any and all resistance depending on cost assessments and timelines of course. But my point remains because frankly it's tacky and hypocritical and it's the exact reason I have trouble taking left of center groups seriously. Negotiations with a hostile power should be "You should consider resigning with dignity to a Mediterranean island to live out your life in comfort (we're obviously more willing to provide an extravagant allowance for your personal expenses than pay for a war to defeat you) before we capture or kill you and feed you to the mob."

What do the idealist pacifists liberals and socialists think they can say to a guy who has either a guilt proof defense mechanism or never had compassion in the first place?

"...What you're doing is wrong."
"No. It's been necessary. I'll tell you why."

They're going to walk out of there on his side by the time it's over.

[ComnenusTheOne]

What is your beef with him?

What is my beef with any american drone... excuse me, i meant soldier, who engages in war operation on behalf of the american imperalism and their corporations?

[Col. Tartleton]

What is my beef with any american drone... excuse me, i meant soldier, who engages in war operation on behalf of the american imperalism and their corporations?

Yeah obviously, but why is that bad?

What is wrong with American Imperialism and Corporations?

I mean overarching. Yes, individual people or individual corporations do bad things, but collectively American corporate enterprise as a whole.

What is wrong with America? What is your problem with the New World Order?

Like I don't understand this. I understand there are little detail problems, I don't believe that we were perfect from the start, we were just a step forward from contemporary governments and continued to improve over time, albeit not always in a linear fashion, it's skewed, problems were solved and new ones created, but what is wrong about rule of the people by the people for the people? What is wrong with strictly limited government? Separation of powers? Armed and empowered citizenry? Protection of property rights? The right to voice dissent without the government getting rid of you? The right to a trial of your peers, in person, with public provisions for legal counsel? What's wrong with any of the fundamentals that have lasted until the present? What's wrong with federalism? What's wrong with living on New England Street in Bedford Falls, New York?

Why can't the world be more like America? Why can't America be more like America?

Then why are corporations bad? Corporations make everything. Everything.

I believe in a service economy. A service society. A place where the only way you get money is by doing someone else a favor. From the top to the bottom everyone works for everyone else by voluntary transactions. For this they receive an agreed upon sum for the services provided. Whether it's Bill Gates making billions or Sally selling lemonade, everyone is making money approximately in line with the service they're providing. Sally didn't revolutionize the world, but she did make good lemonade and for that I thank her with a few dollars, some of which will go directly to her, but it will only be part of what she generates. People like Gates did revolutionize the world, the made things happen, and as such they get to keep a small portion of the big thing they did. If someone keeps tens of billions of dollars I'm guessing they contributed in part to trillions of dollars of wealth.

So I ask again: Why is America bad? Why are corporations bad?

[I WUB PUGS]

So I ask again: Why is America bad? Why are corporations bad?

I would love an answer to this. When was the last time a non-profit changed the world, actually no, because someone will take that one instance and run with it as the end all be all. How many corporations have revolutionized the world or broke open the bonds of poverty vs non-profits. Also how are these non-profits financed and who is providing the majority of that cash? Other people that work for non-profits?

I work for a corporation. A small one. We compete globally with other small to medium sized corporation in the telecom industry. My company supports oil and gas, mining, cell phones, transportation, the internet, all of it. We make several million dollars a year from African customers, several more million from Asian and South American ones.

Oh yeah, Coca-Cola is leading the way in clean water delivery in Africa. They're what? The very definition of evil to these leftists. They primarily sell a product that is bad for you, but they also do a lot of good.

I want an answer to Tarleton's question. I want American Imperialism defined and why it is any worse than local imperialism or Chinese or French or German or Iranian. Or why is imperialism bad at all, can you people even define imperialism and actually back up your negative claims with evidence?

No one wants to live in complete . Afghans live in complete and they hate it. They want cell phones and KFC too, its just that some of them would rather have total control over the cell phones and KFC while reserving the right to stone women for reading. Taliban are just another thug group who seek to control through intimidation.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Because I want the New New World Order , and at some point the New Old World Order.

What is wrong with Capitalism? Maybe that in the long run it fails, it will always get back on its feet but it fails for the people and seemingly only supports the richer people when that happens. Too soon to tell though, let's wait like 10 years and see what happens to America and Europe.

I don't have problem with Imperialism if it ends up working out for everyone, but right now I don't think America can help anyone by making them American. I dislike the concept of Capitalism as a whole especially when you are at the bottom, if I were on the top perhaps the concept would be more appealing to me.

[I WUB PUGS]

Capitalism has been around since the dawn of trade. How has it failed? When the cavemen who made spears traded those spears to the cavemen you caught fish they engaged in capitalism. They earned something they wanted through the fruits of their own labors.

Also the primary reason why capitalism is "failing" is because of socialist policies guaranteeing publicly-secured companies that tanked. The basis of capitalism is sound, the banking industry is not capitalism, that's just a part of it.

We already had Communism and it couldn't even survive 100 years. People want things. They want goods that have varying qualities and are priced accordingly. Communism doesn't provide this. Spare me the Chinese model because they have ghost towns and their progress has been solely because of Western investment and the creation of a cheap labor pool.

Capitalism is what comes natural, it can't go away, and it isn't failing. Now, Government mishandling of a system that is innate to all of us is an entirely different matter.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

What are we even discussing, economics or why every one dislikes America?
I don't think it's capitalism that people have a problem with instead of why wealth is accumulating to a bunch of millionaires.

[Col. Tartleton]

What are we even discussing, economics or why every one dislikes America?
I don't think it's capitalism that people have a problem with instead of why wealth is accumulating to a bunch of millionaires.

The problem is that no one is being hurt by it. Assuming everything is organized correctly we see a growth for everyone and the rich grow richer at a faster rate than the poor do. So life is constantly improving for everyone, but it's not equitably distributed because some people are contributing more to the overall improvements than others and it's only fair we reward them proportionately.

I don't get why that's a problem. If my standard of living goes up I should be happy. If your standard of living goes up even more I should also be happy.

A socialist is in my opinion far greedier than a capitalist.

[Dick Cheney.]

I would love an answer to this. When was the last time a non-profit changed the world, actually no, because someone will take that one instance and run with it as the end all be all.

Yup! PEPFAR: President's Emergency Plan For AIDs Relief.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...iral-treatment

... in 2003, fewer than 50,000 HIV-infected people on the African continent were receiving the antire*troviral drugs that keep the virus in check and halt the progression toward full-blown AIDS. By the time Bush left office, the number had increased to nearly 2 million. Today, the United States is directly supporting antiretroviral treatment for more than 4 million men, women and children worldwide, primarily in Africa.
...
Bush’s initial multibillion-dollar commitment to PEPFAR was not really justifiable on grounds of national security, except perhaps in the broadest possible sense. The administration was motivated instead by altruism. It was the right thing to do.

[ComnenusTheOne]

Yeah obviously, but why is that bad?

Why is it wrong to sell your services to kill your kin to the highest bidder? Because it is irrational.

What is wrong with American Imperialism and Corporations?

I mean overarching. Yes, individual people or individual corporations do bad things, but collectively American corporate enterprise as a whole.

What is wrong with a corporate takeover, through the means of blackmail, advertising, corruption and in many an occassion, firepower, over a group of humans, where they are to be exploited as working cattle under the false pretence of "freedom"? Because it is both unethical and irrational, again.

What is wrong with America? What is your problem with the New World Order?

I do not want to live in this New World Order, based on the well being and the control of this economic aristocracy upon oblivious people. I do not believe, nor accept, the need of a "world order", or the need of this sort of authority upon the people, especially the american "freedom"-branded capitalism.

Like I don't understand this. I understand there are little detail problems, I don't believe that we were perfect from the start, we were just a step forward from contemporary governments and continued to improve over time, albeit not always in a linear fashion, it's skewed, problems were solved and new ones created, but what is wrong about rule of the people by the people for the people? What is wrong with strictly limited government? Separation of powers? Armed and empowered citizenry? Protection of property rights? The right to voice dissent without the government getting rid of you? The right to a trial of your peers, in person, with public provisions for legal counsel? What's wrong with any of the fundamentals that have lasted until the present? What's wrong with federalism? What's wrong with living on New England Street in Bedford Falls, New York?

As i said, it is irrational. I do not expect a nation without any historical background to understand this anyways. Undisciplined gun-slanging idiots in the country-side, lobotomized youth in the urban areas, luben living in ghettos, a corporate economic elite and a government that shows no responsibility towards their practically only subject of well-being... their people. Literally, that , bring back the Soviet Union.

Why can't the world be more like America? Why can't America be more like America?

Because the rest of the world are homo sapiens. Sentient and relatively civilized.

Then why are corporations bad? Corporations make everything. Everything.

Of course they do, they exploit the working class, the steal the worker's goodwill and they produce in order to create "consumers" out of humans. It is pretty obvious.

I believe in a service economy. A service society. A place where the only way you get money is by doing someone else a favor. From the top to the bottom everyone works for everyone else by voluntary transactions. For this they receive an agreed upon sum for the services provided. Whether it's Bill Gates making billions or Sally selling lemonade, everyone is making money approximately in line with the service they're providing. Sally didn't revolutionize the world, but she did make good lemonade and for that I thank her with a few dollars, some of which will go directly to her, but it will only be part of what she generates. People like Gates did revolutionize the world, the made things happen, and as such they get to keep a small portion of the big thing they did. If someone keeps tens of billions of dollars I'm guessing they contributed in part to trillions of dollars of wealth.

You may also believe to the fallacy called "christianity", that does not make it rational. The irrationality of economic and social classes is by default the wrong-ness of the American way of life. The breakthrough of one man makes little to no difference. He could have done the same, living off a basic salary, working in a people owned Microsoft.

So I ask again: Why is America bad? Why are corporations bad?

For the final time. Because they deliberately take over the people's resources through violent action, exploit the working class, steal the worker's goodwill, for their own profit at first, then for the mere reason of control over the already exploited population.

[Sar1n]

bring back the Soviet Union.

Only someone who never seen the consequences of Soviet rule can say something like this. I see some of those daily, and even though my country was "only" a satellite state of USSR, it left deep marks on every aspect of society even today. Communism is inherently flawed, and can't work, that much is certain.

I am not going to pretend here that American capitalism is ideal. There isn't any ideal system available yet, and maybe there never will. But at Iraq and Afghanistan, in a long run it's better than alternative.

Because the rest of the world are homo sapiens. Sentient and relatively civilized.

Quite an absurd statement. Quite a large percentage the Earth's population lives in worse conditions than those that lower classes of US society endure.

For the final time. Because they deliberately take over the people's resources through violent action, exploit the working class, steal the worker's goodwill, for their own profit at first, then for the mere reason of control over the already exploited population.

That was actually MO of USSR, despite their claims. A small oligarchy controlling all resources, industrial capability, politics...and the best thing? The advancement in this oligarchy was determined by the members of that oligarchy, and doctrine that essentially worked AGAINST selecting a capable people in the higher positions.

[Bolkonsky]

What is my beef with any american drone... excuse me, i meant soldier, who engages in war operation on behalf of the american imperalism and their corporations?

Do you realize that Iraq invaded Kuwait?

[Col. Tartleton]

Why is it wrong to sell your services to kill your kin to the highest bidder? Because it is irrational.

It's irrational for an American citizen who works for the American military to command the greatest military force in the world to liberate a friendly state from an aggressor if he receives a paycheck?

What is wrong with a corporate takeover, through the means of blackmail, advertising, corruption and in many an occassion, firepower, over a group of humans, where they are to be exploited as working cattle under the false pretence of "freedom"? Because it is both unethical and irrational, again.

Blackmail is when you threaten to tell the truth about something bad or disgraceful that someone did if someone doesn't incentivize you to remain silent. It's hard to blackmail someone who acts in a moral and socially acceptable way.Advertising is simply promoting ideas. Corruption is the hijacking of government public interests by private interests.

Who is being exploited? The guy or gal who isn't able to work at all, isn't able to contribute to society and isn't able to get a foot in the door or money in his pocket because the minimum wage is too high a bar for his entry into the workforce or the guy or gal who isn't getting a "livable wage?" Aren't these both problems?

I view the former to be more serious than the latter and thus I would take a different course than someone like yourself more concerned with the latter issue. It's that simple. I don't think that idea makes me a bad person.

What are your ethics? What is your rationale? I'm unsure how to defend my civilization because I'm not sure what your issues are. You're going to have to get more specific mon ami.

I do not want to live in this New World Order, based on the well being and the control of this economic aristocracy upon oblivious people. I do not believe, nor accept, the need of a "world order", or the need of this sort of authority upon the people, especially the american "freedom"-branded capitalism.

The authority is from and for the people, not on the people. You don't get what I'm talking about. If you bake a pie and cut a slice for yourself and give the rest of the pie to others as payment that's still giving out pie to people. The more pies you make the more pie you keep for yourself, but that's overshadowed by the pie you give away. Then government is necessarily going to take a bite out of your pie. Then you might want to give some more of the pie away. Then you'll probably going to want to eat the rest of the pie yourself. You can trade that pie for a private island and a luxury yacht.

So ultimately, it seems fairly obvious that the more pie you make the more rich you become. However it's also fairly obvious that the more rich you become the more people you help. Therefore the economic aristocracy are by default the best people in a society. Even if they're ruthlessly and mercilessly crushing their competitors you must understand that that's for the benefit of the consumer. They are in fact the aristocracy. Therefore it seems reasonable that to some extent these people should have a say in the affairs of the state representative of their contribution, not merely their head count. That is not to say that the elite should have more votes than other people or exclusivity to power, but that it is reasonable to allow them to be heard as loud and as clearly and as often as they can project their voice.

As i said, it is irrational. I do not expect a nation without any historical background to understand this anyways. Undisciplined gun-slanging idiots in the country-side, lobotomized youth in the urban areas, luben living in ghettos, a corporate economic elite and a government that shows no responsibility towards their practically only subject of well-being... their people. Literally, that , bring back the Soviet Union.

Adorable. Remind me to send you a Christmas Card.

Because the rest of the world are homo sapiens. Sentient and relatively civilized.

Yeah, I suspect the fact they're human, smart, and semi civilized would explain why people want the New World Order.

Of course they do, they exploit the working class, the steal the worker's goodwill and they produce in order to create "consumers" out of humans. It is pretty obvious.

Or perhaps, and this is some revolutionary I'm bringing to the table here: People with means are consumers and want things. See you're confusing viewing people as consumers where applicable and only viewing people as consumers. Every person is a unique perspective bringing something to the table. Every person can a gem of offer original insight. People are creative, talented, beautiful and fairly harmonic organisms capable of doing great things. However at the end of the day they need to buy toilet paper to wipe their ass and you aren't taking away their humanity by trying to trade them something they need for something you want. They also want a bigger home theater system than their neighbor because first off a home theater is a pleasurable experience and let's be honest we humans like to beat people.

You may also believe to the fallacy called "christianity", that does not make it rational. The irrationality of economic and social classes is by default the wrong-ness of the American way of life. The breakthrough of one man makes little to no difference. He could have done the same, living off a basic salary, working in a people owned Microsoft.

Microsoft is owned by the people Mr. Marx... Please pay attention.

For the final time. Because they deliberately take over the people's resources through violent action, exploit the working class, steal the worker's goodwill, for their own profit at first, then for the mere reason of control over the already exploited population.

I'm just curious what country you're describing.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

"I do not want to live in this New World Order, based on the well being and the control of this economic aristocracy upon oblivious people. I do not believe, nor accept, the need of a "world order", or the need of this sort of authority upon the people, especially the american "freedom"-branded capitalism."
I agree with this part

But don't bring back the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev is the only Soviet leader I liked. Why change Vladimir Putin for the Soviet Union? Seems like an unnecessary change to me, others might probably agree with what I just said.

[DarthShizNit]

Yay, a RIP to a great general and a decent human being (though why is that in VV?) ends up with this...yay...Any way, go kick some ass in heaven general.

[Fluttershy]

Why is it wrong to sell your services to kill your kin to the highest bidder? Because it is irrational.



What is wrong with a corporate takeover, through the means of blackmail, advertising, corruption and in many an occassion, firepower, over a group of humans, where they are to be exploited as working cattle under the false pretence of "freedom"? Because it is both unethical and irrational, again.



I do not want to live in this New World Order, based on the well being and the control of this economic aristocracy upon oblivious people. I do not believe, nor accept, the need of a "world order", or the need of this sort of authority upon the people, especially the american "freedom"-branded capitalism.



As i said, it is irrational. I do not expect a nation without any historical background to understand this anyways. Undisciplined gun-slanging idiots in the country-side, lobotomized youth in the urban areas, luben living in ghettos, a corporate economic elite and a government that shows no responsibility towards their practically only subject of well-being... their people. Literally, that , bring back the Soviet Union.



Because the rest of the world are homo sapiens. Sentient and relatively civilized.



Of course they do, they exploit the working class, the steal the worker's goodwill and they produce in order to create "consumers" out of humans. It is pretty obvious.



You may also believe to the fallacy called "christianity", that does not make it rational. The irrationality of economic and social classes is by default the wrong-ness of the American way of life. The breakthrough of one man makes little to no difference. He could have done the same, living off a basic salary, working in a people owned Microsoft.



For the final time. Because they deliberately take over the people's resources through violent action, exploit the working class, steal the worker's goodwill, for their own profit at first, then for the mere reason of control over the already exploited population.

Holy crap, Comrade commenus has gone off the deep end

[Thorn777]

Holy crap, Comrade commenus has gone off the deep end

You think thats funny but this:

Yeah obviously, but why is that bad?

What is wrong with American Imperialism and Corporations?

I mean overarching. Yes, individual people or individual corporations do bad things, but collectively American corporate enterprise as a whole.

What is wrong with America? What is your problem with the New World Order?

Like I don't understand this. I understand there are little detail problems, I don't believe that we were perfect from the start, we were just a step forward from contemporary governments and continued to improve over time, albeit not always in a linear fashion, it's skewed, problems were solved and new ones created, but what is wrong about rule of the people by the people for the people? What is wrong with strictly limited government? Separation of powers? Armed and empowered citizenry? Protection of property rights? The right to voice dissent without the government getting rid of you? The right to a trial of your peers, in person, with public provisions for legal counsel? What's wrong with any of the fundamentals that have lasted until the present? What's wrong with federalism? What's wrong with living on New England Street in Bedford Falls, New York?

Why can't the world be more like America? Why can't America be more like America?

Then why are corporations bad? Corporations make everything. Everything.

I believe in a service economy. A service society. A place where the only way you get money is by doing someone else a favor. From the top to the bottom everyone works for everyone else by voluntary transactions. For this they receive an agreed upon sum for the services provided. Whether it's Bill Gates making billions or Sally selling lemonade, everyone is making money approximately in line with the service they're providing. Sally didn't revolutionize the world, but she did make good lemonade and for that I thank her with a few dollars, some of which will go directly to her, but it will only be part of what she generates. People like Gates did revolutionize the world, the made things happen, and as such they get to keep a small portion of the big thing they did. If someone keeps tens of billions of dollars I'm guessing they contributed in part to trillions of dollars of wealth.

So I ask again: Why is America bad? Why are corporations bad?

isnt?

Hey Tarleton, how about Americanism ing peoples minds and priorities up for a starter...

[Fluttershy]

You think thats funny but this:



isnt?

Hey Tarleton, how about Americanism ing peoples minds and priorities up for a starter...

well commenus might be serious... while Tarleton is kind of like a board version of stephen colbert, I think his post was at least partially tongue in cheek