Darthmod American Indians

[Lafhameyer]

Everything is great, except for the fact that the American Indians are almost super human. They defeat whole armies with just bows... It's crazy. They can just stand there and not move... you can pour volley after volley into them, and maybe four of them are killed.. I can defeat England with easy, but not the American Indians... lol Fix this shall we????

[Jswift255]

Definitely not vanilla's NA armies we're dealing with. You actually have to take these seriously. Cav is your best friend when fighting them. Don't let any of your regiments take on a bow unit by itself. If you have bayonets then try to engage in melee. Carcass and quick-lime are also useful once they reveal themselves.

[MatrixStorm]

Everything is great, except for the fact that the American Indians are almost super human. They defeat whole armies with just bows... It's crazy. They can just stand there and not move... you can pour volley after volley into them, and maybe four of them are killed.. I can defeat England with easy, but not the American Indians... lol Fix this shall we????

There was a thread about this a long while ago...

An expert archer could shoot more arrows with more precision than a soldier with a rifle could shoot bullets.
The only reason why they implemented the rifles back in the late medieval period was because everybody could learn how to use one in a few days while bows need skill and years of practice.

If you are having trouble with the archers; use cavalry (they were invented for this).
When lacking cavalry, you can walk close, make them rank fire and after the first three volleys you have to go melee.

[NYG 5]

be very careful when engaging natives before you research fire by rank

[Robertclive]

Lol I just played a battle against the natives an it looked like I was going to win till one unit of bowmen routed my whole army. It's bull****

[MatrixStorm]

Lol I just played a battle against the natives an it looked like I was going to win till one unit of bowmen routed my whole army. It's bull****

Well, it depends on how big your army was.
As I said before; an archer can shoot mor arrows per minute than a musketeer can shoot bullets.
By the time a musketeer has reloaded his weapon and shot again, the archer has already shot 5 to 7 arrows.
Just use some cavalry and your problems will be solved.

[saglam2000]

I want to know when in history stacks of a couple of thousand of natives just walked around stomping european line infantry. Who cares if the bowman shoots faster, the other bow armed troops in game do not decimate infantry like natives and natives would have bows/tactics compared to european bows.

It's stupid how the native americans, at best a footnote in a history, can actually hold off european expansionism.

[╬Ritterbruder╬]

I want to know when in history stacks of a couple of thousand of natives just walked around stomping european line infantry. Who cares if the bowman shoots faster, the other bow armed troops in game do not decimate infantry like natives and natives would have bows/tactics compared to european bows.

It's stupid how the native americans, at best a footnote in a history, can actually hold off european expansionism.

I feared you have just resparked a debate of which many hoped it was dead, and would remain dead...

but since it is pretty much inevitable now, I might as well join in to end it sooner:
I must agree on you partially, even if the natives might be supurb with bow, they are far better disciplined than you would expect from uncivilised tribes. Bowman can withstand a direct charge from cavalry, and even several volleys of musket fires, things that would already break most european regiments.
but then also, if the natives were really as weak as they were in reality, bow skills or no bow skills, they would be pretty much redundant in the game, since the only real limit in the colonies was the manpower the colonists could get to deal with natives. But since ETW has no such restrictions on recruiting in the colonies, they might as well make the natives tougher to put up a (bit of a) challenge

[ElusiveHonor]

I'm glad someone made a thread about this, because honestly I found this to be one of the worst parts about the mod.

Bow units in general really need a nerf, but Native Americans do more than anything.

While I understand the Native warfare isn't simulated properly, the fact that bows are far too lethal overcompensates this defect in the game. They should be pushovers in a stand-up fight, and if they ambush you then they become a problem.

Indeed, what should be simulated are motifies in the provinces of the Americas that add to public disorder. Stuff like: native raid = -5, or something, that simulate the real problems Native's caused.

[MajorPager]

Play as if in India when fighting Natives, and as an earlier post suggested, Cav is your best friend!

[Robertclive]

Okay, this is preposterous, I shouldn't have to mobilize a large scale army just to defeat these savages. My 1 stack army just got destroyed by an army that didn't even have guns. Why not just give every unit in the game a melee weapon. The game would be way easier. I'm sure if this was true in real life than European colonization would have never happened.

[Robertclive]

how do you edit musket accuracy

[orckhan]

Natives are not that hard imho. They do scatter under concentrated artillery and musket fire easily (especially their melee units against rank fire) and bowmen are not a problem at all for a bayonet charge (never exchange volleys with them).

The only inconsistency i have seen about natives is that there is an enormous difference in melee power between a line infantry and an indian melee unit. On one occasion i had my 3 line infantries who couldnt fire and their lines were cut through in just seconds to my surprise. imho such an outcome might be accepted for a plug/ring bayonet inf. but realistically line inf. with socket bayonets and new bayonet drill shouldnt just break that easily in a melee.

I have seen somewhere in a Russian generals memoirs that against charging Janissaries in melee; the best tactic to stop them appeared to be not even the concentrated musket volleys, but the bayonet. I would like to see this to be implemented in DME as well.

[╬Ritterbruder╬]

Natives are not that hard imho. They do scatter under concentrated artillery and musket fire easily (especially their melee units against rank fire) and bowmen are not a problem at all for a bayonet charge (never exchange volleys with them).

The only inconsistency i have seen about natives is that there is an enormous difference in melee power between a line infantry and an indian melee unit. On one occasion i had my 3 line infantries who couldnt fire and their lines were cut through in just seconds to my surprise. imho such an outcome might be accepted for a plug/ring bayonet inf. but realistically line inf. with socket bayonets and new bayonet drill shouldnt just break that easily in a melee.

I have seen somewhere in a Russian generals memoirs that against charging Janissaries in melee; the best tactic to stop them appeared to be not even the concentrated musket volleys, but the bayonet. I would like to see this to be implemented in DME as well.

I hope that isn't to big a modification for a patch then, since there will be no DME 9.0

[MajorPager]

Okay, this is preposterous, I shouldn't have to mobilize a large scale army just to defeat these savages. My 1 stack army just got destroyed by an army that didn't even have guns. Why not just give every unit in the game a melee weapon. The game would be way easier. I'm sure if this was true in real life than European colonization would have never happened.

Hmmm, may I tell you of the French Indian war where the British mobilized a "large" force and that got utterly decimated by the French with considerable help from the "savages". Same thing is happening to you for underestimating the enemy.

That idea would break the balance of the game.

Um, colonization did occur under these circumstances, suffice to say it was a bloody business.

[Robertclive]

Hmmm, may I tell you of the French Indian war where the British mobilized a "large" force and that got utterly decimated by the French with considerable help from the "savages". Same thing is happening to you for underestimating the enemy.

That idea would break the balance of the game.

Um, colonization did occur under these circumstances, suffice to say it was a bloody business.

Ya to fight the french, im fighting the cherokee. How so, im witnessing basic cherokee militia withstand 3 plus volleys and decimating my forces in seconds. Apparently the cherokee indians were the fiercest warriors in human history.

[mav61]

Yes overpowered...the best i've seen is TAR great mod very good , any engagment with natives was a challenge but winnable.
Would decimate their front ranks only to find myself being flanked once they get in close its tuff...but most of the time a bit of cav would sort them out...to me TAR definatley is one of the best mods for Empire

[DARTH VADER]

Can you check the latest open beta and tell me how you fight Indians now?

[Robertclive]

Can you check the latest open beta and tell me how you fight Indians now?

will downloading change up my editing I made in the dbeditor? I just try to avoid getting engaged with melee with them because they'll rip apart your infantry like a cheese grater. They have ridiculously uber stats for a primitive people, like mounted lancers have a base charge of 24 and all the other units have plus 10 attack.

[orckhan]

I have also noticed that for the same level of buildings, the indian one is better than the european one.
i.e.
communal farm > level2 western farm
meeting hall > level2 western university

I'm playing as US and most of my academies are meeting halls