Connections between England and Westeros

[mortem et gloria]

i think its fairly obvious westeros is based on the uk, albiet loosely. you can see where he got his influence from. uk is 4 kingdoms, westeros is 7 kingdoms. they always point out the differences between north and south of westeros, which is somewhat similar to the scotland/england divide. plus, the kings in the north i reckon are his version the scottish kingdom. there are also a lot of small clans in the north, like what would have existed in medieval era scotland.

the vale would also seem to be based on ireland. same point about clans. plus, the main castle in the vale is called the Eyrie(Eire)

dorne is cornwall (obviously)

thus essos loosely represents europe/asia, and sothyros northern africa.

of course it's based on real life history. even in fantasy/sci fi all the best stories are based on some kind of fact. but its important to remember that it ISNT uk/england/ireland, its westeros. GRRM's own creation. plus, lets not forget that as soon as you think you've got GRRM figured out, he hits you with something and it blows it all to hell.

tolkien did a similar thing with middle earth i believe, though im not as well read on the lore of middle earth that i am of westeros. found this online though for arguments sake.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

also just saw this completely crackpot theory and thought it was worth a mention

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

dude england used to be 7 kingdoms.........................

wessex
northumbria
kent
east anglia
essex
sussex
mercia


remember that the south was predominately saxon angles and jutes, the north was viking controlled as well as pict influence ( both sets prayed to trees.)

cornwall was also a part of wales believe it or not and was called west wales.... or in its romanised welsh dumnonia... the famous tribes where the Iseni and Dumnoniii ......


if your unsure on historical facts please check before you post.

also if anyone wants to say a point post a link or you comment will not have any base to it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy


edit : also tolkien got his inspiration from the west midlands region of his home land. hence the name middle earth, he also openly spoke about what gave him inspiration hence you can actually go on the middle earth tour in birmingham england.

[Vahir]

The wars of the roses is different than the War of Five Kings, I've noticed, in that the WoR was a fight between two families, while the WoFK has many. This is important because you couldn't just switch to the other side if things got bad in Westeros, because there were many sides. There's also a lot of nationalism in westeros (King in the North!) that just wasn't present in England. Obviously, many things in Westeros have parallels, but nothing's copied. It's its own situation.

[mortem et gloria]

The wars of the roses is different than the War of Five Kings, I've noticed, in that the WoR was a fight between two families, while the WoFK has many. This is important because you couldn't just switch to the other side if things got bad in Westeros, because there were many sides. There's also a lot of nationalism in westeros (King in the North!) that just wasn't present in England. Obviously, many things in Westeros have parallels, but nothing's copied. It's its own situation.

there have been many occasions in english history where this has happened.

when england was 7 kingdoms there where literally 7 kings. when the normans invaded they reclaimed all the land and i dont believe a single high lord kept there land. this is the only differnce similar to the story of alexander the great when he marched on jewresulam similar to the oldtown story.


but in later history there has been many occasions where there have been more than one pretender.

also the 100 year war was also known the war of the 5 kings

Edward III of England, son of Edward II, was the first English king to have a claim to the throne of France. Edward III pursued this claim, which resulted in the Hundred Years' War (1337–1453). The war pitted five Kings of England of the House of Plantagenet against five Kings of France of the Capetian House of Valois. Though the English had numerous celebrated victories, they were unable to overcome the numerical superiority of the French. England was defeated, retaining only a single town in France, Calais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...s_of_the_Roses

also just to be really obvious

england
ireland
wales
scotland
norway.................

every aspect im afraid

[Vahir]

there have been many occasions in english history where this has happened.

when england was 7 kingdoms there where literally 7 kings. when the normans invaded they reclaimed all the land and i dont believe a single high lord kept there land. this is the only differnce similar to the story of alexander the great when he marched on jewresulam similar to the oldtown story.


but in later history there has been many occasions where there have been more than one pretender.

also the 100 year war was also known the war of the 5 kings

Edward III of England, son of Edward II, was the first English king to have a claim to the throne of France. Edward III pursued this claim, which resulted in the Hundred Years' War (1337–1453). The war pitted five Kings of England of the House of Plantagenet against five Kings of France of the Capetian House of Valois. Though the English had numerous celebrated victories, they were unable to overcome the numerical superiority of the French. England was defeated, retaining only a single town in France, Calais.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...s_of_the_Roses

also just to be really obvious

england
ireland
wales
scotland
norway.................

every aspect im afraid

Actually, when the Normans came, the land was more or less united under the anglo-saxons. England wasn't born at Hastings. And Alexander, as far as I know, didn't really care about Jerusalem, although you are correct, his being crowned Pharaoh of Egypt has a clear parallel with the march on oldtown, although I'm skeptical that GRRM took that as inspiration.

I don't see what you're trying to argue for the rest. Every country has had plenty of dynastic disputes, with lots of contenders. The thing is, those contenders are rarely all in at once; There's usually two big ones, and others step up when those die.

I don't see how the War of Five Kings resembles the Hundred Year's War. The WoFK is most definitely a civil war, while the hundred year's war was a war between England and France. Soldiers didn't fight for HENRY or CHARLES, they fought for ENGLAND or FRANCE (An important distinction). Not to mention that England and France were never united after the Romans fell, while Westeros had been together for 300 years.

And finally, you named five kings. I see what you're driving at (War of Five Kings), but it doesn't seem relevant. Those kingdoms didn't declare themselves independent from an existing entity or vied for the same crown. They were never united.

[The Forgotten]

Westeros was split into Seven Kingdoms just before the conquest, but it is a lot more complex than that. It have NINE distinct regions and the Hoares only held the Riverlands for a couple generations. Also the Hepatarchy or whatever it is called existed mainly in the dark ages. Then the Normans came and conquered it in around the 1100s. Aegon conquered Westeros when it was easily into the feudal age. Look hard enough and you can find coincedances anywhere. But they are just that. Btw Seven is a VERY common number in fantasy. It just fits and sounds good.

[Werthead]

GRRM never intended for there to be one-to-one correlations, but a mixture of his own ideas, ideas lifted from other authors and ideas taken from real history and geography. For example, the Dornish are a mixture of Moorish Spain, Wales and Cornwall. The Dothraki aren't just the Mongols with the serial numbers filed off, but also have some inspriations from the Alans, Huns, Native Americans and also an SF story that Martin wrote (but never published) as a kid, featuring the 'Dothrak Empire'.

Westeros certainly bears some similarities to England in terms of geography, but it's much vaster (3,000 miles from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne, opposed to a mere 600 miles for the length of Britain) and draws inspiration from Europe as much as England. The North draws on northern England, including Yorkshire, but also has some inspiration from Scandanavia (particularly in how people manage to live with year-round snow and near-arctic conditions). The Reach, with its huge population and professional army, is also influenced by France (which had the largest population of any western European power in the medieval period), though with less internal divisions.

However, there is also a nod to the War of the Roses, with the York/Lancaster struggle ultimately ending with the Tudors ending up on the throne after a mixture of warfare and political expediency, as can be seen with the Tyrells ending up as the most powerful single force in Westeros following warfare (helping militarily defeat the Starks and their allies) and negotiation (allying with the Lannisters). It's not an exact match - the familial relationships are very different - but clearly there's an echo there.

Martin has mentioned a few direct correlations on a local level however:

The Eyrie = Neuschwanstein Castle in Germany
Highgarden = The Hanging Gardens of Babylon (on a much smaller scale)
Casterly Rock = The Rock of Gibraltar
The Wall = Hadrian's Wall (more in terms of function than size, though)
Braavos = Venice
The Titan of Braavos = The Colossus of Rhodes
Valyria = Rome
The Doom of Valyria = The eruption of Pompeii (on a much, much vaster scale)
Ghis = Greece
Qarth = Constantinople (again, more in terms of function and geography than the actual culture)
Sothoryos = Africa

[mortem et gloria]

Westeros was split into Seven Kingdoms just before the conquest, but it is a lot more complex than that. It have NINE distinct regions and the Hoares only held the Riverlands for a couple generations. Also the Hepatarchy or whatever it is called existed mainly in the dark ages. Then the Normans came and conquered it in around the 1100s. Aegon conquered Westeros when it was easily into the feudal age. Look hard enough and you can find coincedances anywhere. But they are just that. Btw Seven is a VERY common number in fantasy. It just fits and sounds good.

im sorry as i dont like to openly critize but.....

when aegon conquered.............. it was conquered by the angles........... when england was invaded it was by the saxons angles and jutes. the
kingdom of england was only an actual kingdom of england ( or angleand) from the early 10th century i believe it was 925 but i will have to check. but some disclaim that it wasnt until 953ad when edger WAS ACTUALLY CROWNED.... so only for roughly 140 years was england ever england and not separate kingdoms

but anyway the angles are based on the same group of people with germanic traits in both religion and custom.

now a feudel system just means The system of government based on the tenure of land or The system of land tenure and of government in which the landholders are the governors. so basically a pyramid structure map of power.

now the saxons had a system SAXON FEUDALISM

kings
barons earls
tenants in chief
villeins

when the normans conquered FRENCH FEUDALISM

king
duke
baron/lord
knights
gentry
peasants

now when aegon conquered there where 7 kings, it then turned to 1 king 6 kingdoms ( basicaly each warden is a duke.)

What we generally accept as a standard template is the french form.

before there where just kings and lords etc


now as for the 5 kings you want an example then have alook between ad 350 and ad925 and you will have perhaps 1000.

GRRM HAS TAKEN BITS AND PIECES THROUGHOUT HISTORY NOT JUST ONE SPECIFIC TIME. IT COVERS EVERY ASPECT

CELTIC
SAXON
NORMAN
WELSH
SCOTTISH
IRISH
PICT
NORWEGIAN
(ALL PRESENT IN ENGLAND AT ONE TIME OR ANOUTHER.)

GRRM never intended for there to be one-to-one correlations, but a mixture of his own ideas, ideas lifted from other authors and ideas taken from real history and geography. For example, the Dornish are a mixture of Moorish Spain, Wales and Cornwall. The Dothraki aren't just the Mongols with the serial numbers filed off, but also have some inspriations from the Alans, Huns, Native Americans and also an SF story that Martin wrote (but never published) as a kid, featuring the 'Dothrak Empire'.

Westeros certainly bears some similarities to England in terms of geography, but it's much vaster (3,000 miles from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne, opposed to a mere 600 miles for the length of Britain) and draws inspiration from Europe as much as England. The North draws on northern England, including Yorkshire, but also has some inspiration from Scandanavia (particularly in how people manage to live with year-round snow and near-arctic conditions). The Reach, with its huge population and professional army, is also influenced by France (which had the largest population of any western European power in the medieval period), though with less internal divisions.

However, there is also a nod to the War of the Roses, with the York/Lancaster struggle ultimately ending with the Tudors ending up on the throne after a mixture of warfare and political expediency, as can be seen with the Tyrells ending up as the most powerful single force in Westeros following warfare (helping militarily defeat the Starks and their allies) and negotiation (allying with the Lannisters). It's not an exact match - the familial relationships are very different - but clearly there's an echo there.

Martin has mentioned a few direct correlations on a local level however:

The Eyrie = Neuschwanstein Castle in Germany
Highgarden = The Hanging Gardens of Babylon (on a much smaller scale)
Casterly Rock = The Rock of Gibraltar
The Wall = Hadrian's Wall (more in terms of function than size, though)
Braavos = Venice
The Titan of Braavos = The Colossus of Rhodes
Valyria = Rome
The Doom of Valyria = The eruption of Pompeii (on a much, much vaster scale)
Ghis = Greece
Qarth = Constantinople (again, more in terms of function and geography than the actual culture)
Sothoryos = Africa

You say that the north shares resbolense to scadenavia etc was part of northumbria.

for the actual castles GRRM has taken insperation from cultures around the world i will not deny but.


westerlands is wales ( one of the only places in england to actually have gold.)
dorne is cornwall ( cornwall used to be called west wales been over this......)
storm lands and kingslands is london and surrounding areas
eyrie is the lake district
the reach is the midlands OR MERCIA (ALSO WAS FAMED FOR FARMING )
the riverlands is also in england the riverlands
the north is northumbria

essos is the rest of europe as far as the cultures are concerned

There are literally a few differences between Mongols and Huns and the main one is related to the organization of their army and how they managed the captured territories . Hunnic soldiers did not follow a warrior code similar to Yasha and after Attila died,his empire simply cease to exist,while the Mongolian empire just got splitted into 4 different territories ( much like his blood riders becoming khals. they became khans.) when Genghis khan died .
also there are alot of theories that the huns and the mongels ........... i also have already stated the art of scalping is from native americans....

the Huns were descended from the Xiong Nu. the Xiong Nu were speaking a very close if not identical language to Turks (Tu Jue), Uyghurs (Hui Hu) and other turkic peoples. ,tho there are many theories between a corrilation between the Xiong Nu, the Huns.



Mongols are yet another Asiatic people speaking an agglutinative language similar in grammar to turkic tongues as well as such distinct speeches as Finnish, Magyar and Japanese, but lacking enough number of cognates especially in basic sets of words such as numbers, pronouns etc. to conclude a language family such as Indo-European or Semitic etc. There are striking similarities between the anatomical shapes and overall phisionomies of all Asiatic peples and common properties in the lifestyles of steppe peoples, no matter ethnicity (that is including the Indo European steppe peoples) enforced by the life conditions.


also story is not finished there will be many twists and turns to go ahead.

but as i have said there are many differences but on nearly everything to do with westeros is to do with the uk


7 KINGDOMS OF WESTEROS
7 KINGDOMS OF ENGLAND





ALSO LOOK AT THE CONQUERING BATTLES BELOW LOOK AT THE TRIDENT

[The Forgotten]

I am sorry but could you make what you are try to say a little clearer? I am sketchy on my English history all I meant to say was that the Normans conquered England when the 7 kingdoms in England were not really seperate. They were subjugated under the Saxons or Vikings.

As for the map I don't see what that proves. Are you connecting it to Aegon or the War of the Usurper? Sure there are battles near rivers. Many rivers branch out. The Battle of the Ruby Fords all but won Robert the crown. As far as I know once the battles on the map happened Harold dies not long after at Hastings. Aegon landed and was crowned in an entirely different part if you can compare England and Westeros that closely.

Wert is fairly right as far as I know. Martin definatly had inspiration in the real world but at the end of the day he has created a whole new world that is all his own.

[mortem et gloria]

I am sorry but could you make what you are try to say a little clearer? I am sketchy on my English history all I meant to say was that the Normans conquered England when the 7 kingdoms in England were not really seperate. They were subjugated under the Saxons or Vikings.

As for the map I don't see what that proves. Are you connecting it to Aegon or the War of the Usurper? Sure there are battles near rivers. Many rivers branch out. The Battle of the Ruby Fords all but won Robert the crown. As far as I know once the battles on the map happened Harold dies not long after at Hastings. Aegon landed and was crowned in an entirely different part if you can compare England and Westeros that closely.

Wert is fairly right as far as I know. Martin definatly had inspiration in the real world but at the end of the day he has created a whole new world that is all his own.

Basically wessex was the dominate house for many years with alfred the great etc and finally in 925 york was finally conquered. but before this there where actually 7 main kingdoms of what we call england.

the map i just looked cool as stanford bridge one of the main battles in english history was on a trident forked river.

now the way i believe martin has styled it is that there was not a complete england but 150 years before when there was still 7 kings and then hit it will the norman invasion. makes more sence.

but lets just be honest everything about it has a bite of something else its not really original. which i really couldnt give a damn as its still epic.



ALSO WERTHEAD THIS THREAD IS NOT CALLED WESTEROS IS ENGLAND. ITS CONNECTIONS BETWEEN ENGLAND AND WESTEROS MEANING THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BUT MOST THINGS ARE TAKING FROM ITS HISTORY

[The Forgotten]

All Werthead and I are trying to say is that Martin didn't just take England and slightly morphed it to make ASoIAF. It is not like England is just chalk full of gold mines or has winters that last years. He did take some stuff from England, but he probably took just as much from elsewhere. From my view it is incredibaly hard to come up with a whole new universe from pure imagination. If I ever get to writing my series I might take Pangea and mash it around to get my Continents.

Tolkien did it and so have others. Heck, the author of Eragon took some from Tolkien. I am not supporting plagerism, but i don't mind when I can see parallels to history. It lets me understand what is happening quicker. Plus Martin has filled Westeros with his very own characters. Aragorn and Hector are awesome, but we all know what happens to them. Jamie on the other hand is like you or me. He is no lost King that fights through 100 men to win his throne. After the fifth guy he would probably take a crossbow bolt to the neck. As far as I know, no King in history has been more stupid and vicious as Joffery (there actually might have been).

[Werthead]

westerlands is wales ( one of the only places in england to actually have gold.)
dorne is cornwall ( cornwall used to be called west wales been over this......)
storm lands and kingslands is london and surrounding areas
eyrie is the lake district
the reach is the midlands OR MERCIA (ALSO WAS FAMED FOR FARMING )
the riverlands is also in england the riverlands
the north is northumbria

Yes, there are similarities there. But there are similarities with other locations as well, and GRRM has said his primary inspirations for some of those locations is different (Dorne has a few nods to Cornwall, being a peninsula located at the southern end of its landmass plus the name, but it's primary inspiration is Moorish Spain).

ALSO WERTHEAD THIS THREAD IS NOT CALLED WESTEROS IS ENGLAND. ITS CONNECTIONS BETWEEN ENGLAND AND WESTEROS MEANING THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BUT MOST THINGS ARE TAKING FROM ITS HISTORY

I'm not sure about 'most things', but yes, there are strong influences and inspirations from real English history, amongst other factors. I was just puzzled because in your original post you said:

It is based on England with every aspect I am afraid.

Which is not the case at all, as you later say. Moorish Spain, the primary inspiration for Dorne, was not located in England, for example. The Westerlands has similarities to Wales in terms of terrain (hills and low mountains), resources (gold and silver, compared to the real Wales's impressive coal resources and a small amount of gold) and location (in the west), but also major differences: the Westerlanders are not fiercely nationalistic in the same way the Welsh were/are (a trait more strongly found in Dorne) and are one of the more populous parts of the continent, able to field one of the largest armies, which was not the case of Wales (which has always been somewhat under-populated considering its size).

The point I was making was that Martin drew a lot of inspiration from real-world history, but also mixed and matched things up. Robert Baratheon is partly influenced by Henry IV, for example, but his later fat indolence is a nod towards Henry VIII whilst his thunderous voice and hunger for combat is actually based on the totally-fictional King Richard IV (played by Brian Blessed) from the Blackadder TV series (!). This keeps things more interesting. If ASoIaF was really just the Wars of the Roses mapped onto a fantasy world and we could see what was going to happen next, that'd be a bit dull. Another fantasy author named Chris Bunch actually did this 15 years ago in his Seer King trilogy, which was much more directly based on the Napoleonic Wars. Once the until-then successful armies of the emperor invaded the vast neighbouring empire that bore more than a passing resemblance to Russia, you could predict with some accuracy where the story was going to go

ETA: GRRM has also said there's influences from completely outside medieval Europe as well. He's a big fan of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and there's some echoes of that in the books (the Battle of the Blackwater has some passing similarities to the Battle of the Red Cliffs), and particularly Roman history. The vicious murderousness of the politics in ASoIaF may actually have more in common with Roman politics than actual medieval ones.

[Gromit]

Basically wessex was the dominate house for many years with alfred the great etc and finally in 925 york was finally conquered. but before this there where actually 7 main kingdoms of what we call england.

the map i just looked cool as stanford bridge one of the main battles in english history was on a trident forked river.

now the way i believe martin has styled it is that there was not a complete england but 150 years before when there was still 7 kings and then hit it will the norman invasion. makes more sence.

but lets just be honest everything about it has a bite of something else its not really original. which i really couldnt give a damn as its still epic.



ALSO WERTHEAD THIS THREAD IS NOT CALLED WESTEROS IS ENGLAND. ITS CONNECTIONS BETWEEN ENGLAND AND WESTEROS MEANING THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BUT MOST THINGS ARE TAKING FROM ITS HISTORY

Saying "most things are taking (sp) from its history" is a gross exaggeration. There are similarities, but as others have noted many of the connections are extremely vague and could be taken from any culture (I could see a strong connection between the War of the 5 Kings and the French War of the 3 Henry's, for example). I'm not an expert, but I consider myself fairly well versed in English history and the term heptarchy is not a tremendously common one to refer to that period of English history, and its somewhat of an arbitrary distinction exempting certain independent states. Statements like "The Vale is the Lake District" because they're both not-flat terrain areas geographically to the north of the capital seem to be reading too much into it, the same goes for the Westerlands are the Welsh area because they are the only part of the UK with (extremely small) gold mines. The general geography is obviously inspired by the British Isles, but reading at as a re-imagining or retelling of the anglo-saxon kingdoms, the Wars of the Roses, William the Conqueror, etc is too much in my opinion.

[mortem et gloria]

Yes, there are similarities there. But there are similarities with other locations as well, and GRRM has said his primary inspirations for some of those locations is different (Dorne has a few nods to Cornwall, being a peninsula located at the southern end of its landmass plus the name, but it's primary inspiration is Moorish Spain).

I'm not sure about 'most things', but yes, there are strong influences and inspirations from real English history, amongst other factors. I was just puzzled because in your original post you said:

Which is not the case at all, as you later say. Moorish Spain, the primary inspiration for Dorne, was not located in England, for example. The Westerlands has similarities to Wales in terms of terrain (hills and low mountains), resources (gold and silver, compared to the real Wales's impressive coal resources and a small amount of gold) and location (in the west), but also major differences: the Westerlanders are not fiercely nationalistic in the same way the Welsh were/are (a trait more strongly found in Dorne) and are one of the more populous parts of the continent, able to field one of the largest armies, which was not the case of Wales (which has always been somewhat under-populated considering its size).

The point I was making was that Martin drew a lot of inspiration from real-world history, but also mixed and matched things up. Robert Baratheon is partly influenced by Henry IV, for example, but his later fat indolence is a nod towards Henry VIII whilst his thunderous voice and hunger for combat is actually based on the totally-fictional King Richard IV (played by Brian Blessed) from the Blackadder TV series (!). This keeps things more interesting. If ASoIaF was really just the Wars of the Roses mapped onto a fantasy world and we could see what was going to happen next, that'd be a bit dull. Another fantasy author named Chris Bunch actually did this 15 years ago in his Seer King trilogy, which was much more directly based on the Napoleonic Wars. Once the until-then successful armies of the emperor invaded the vast neighbouring empire that bore more than a passing resemblance to Russia, you could predict with some accuracy where the story was going to go

ETA: GRRM has also said there's influences from completely outside medieval Europe as well. He's a big fan of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and there's some echoes of that in the books (the Battle of the Blackwater has some passing similarities to the Battle of the Red Cliffs), and particularly Roman history. The vicious murderousness of the politics in ASoIaF may actually have more in common with Roman politics than actual medieval ones.

i see almost no spanish influence.

spain in the middle ageis was very very similar to france in weaponry feudel system, and the language etc.

the dornish or the domonnii who either spoke luf or DORN (http://www.academia.edu/151095/A_Com..._Hand_and_Fist) ( as it is in saxon and roman periods.) had near to no navy apart from trading out posts, the had a completely different vocabulary the further south you went. ( same as in the books.) they have charicter traits similar to the iseni ( women can rule most certainly not in early spain.) now the moors yes........... that i will agree


now every aspect DOES have a clear connection to english history. it does not mean that everything is 100% from that period. but even things such as the red commet

WAS A HUGE ENGLISH STORY IN THE SAXON CHRONICALS

iput my 1st in dark ages to high medieval society degree from oxford ( i also got a first in ict.) ( even tho i am italian and do not speak perfect english.) on the line in what i say now

essos has mainly

spanish hunic mongolian ( very similar.)
french italian
greek eygption


westeros has

england
wales
ireland
scotland
cornish


btw GRRM has sayed spanish moors completely different from the normal spanish north, tho i can see little to know actually comparison to each other from a scholars point of view ( i do this as a hoppy ict is my job.) the main is welsh ( cornwall was considered west wales for over 700 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!) no your history please do not just copy and paste. and if you do prove links

it may have some minor details from other cultures but they are so minor it doesnt make any of the base for the story

[mortem et gloria]

Saying "most things are taking (sp) from its history" is a gross exaggeration. There are similarities, but as others have noted many of the connections are extremely vague and could be taken from any culture (I could see a strong connection between the War of the 5 Kings and the French War of the 3 Henry's, for example). I'm not an expert, but I consider myself fairly well versed in English history and the term heptarchy is not a tremendously common one to refer to that period of English history, and its somewhat of an arbitrary distinction exempting certain independent states. Statements like "The Vale is the Lake District" because they're both not-flat terrain areas geographically to the north of the capital seem to be reading too much into it, the same goes for the Westerlands are the Welsh area because they are the only part of the UK with (extremely small) gold mines. The general geography is obviously inspired by the British Isles, but reading at as a re-imagining or retelling of the anglo-saxon kingdoms, the Wars of the Roses, William the Conqueror, etc is too much in my opinion.

also if you where well versied in the dark ages history you would no what heptarchy means as it is a very commonly used by historians not teenagers with a wiki

IT MEANS 7 KINGS OR RULERS IN ONE COUNTRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ALSO THIS IS MEANT TO BE A FUN DEBATE ON CONNECTIONS YOU SEE TRY TO KEEP IT THIS WAY

[Vahir]

also if you where well versied in the dark ages history you would no what heptarchy means as it is a very commonly used by historians not teenagers with a wiki

IT MEANS 7 KINGS OR RULERS IN ONE COUNTRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ALSO THIS IS MEANT TO BE A FUN DEBATE ON CONNECTIONS YOU SEE TRY TO KEEP IT THIS WAY

Yes, there are connections, but not the ones you're trying to argue; I very much doubt GRRM looked at pre-conquest England and used that. 1. Westeros is based on Ireland not England. 2. William did not unite England. 3. As was noted before, 7 is a very common number, and is regarded as lucky, which is probably why GRRM set it as the base number for Westeros; It's everywhere from the number of kingdoms the religion.

You're grasping at straws that aren't even there, man.

[mortem et gloria]

Yes, there are connections, but not the ones you're trying to argue; I very much doubt GRRM looked at pre-conquest England and used that. 1. WESTEROS IS BASED ON IRELAND, NOT ENGLAND. 2. WILLIAM THE CONQUEROR DID NOT UNITE ENGLAND. 3. As was noted before, 7 is a very common number, and is regarded as lucky, which is probably why GRRM set it as the base number for Westeros; It's everywhere from the number of kingdoms the religion.

You're grasping at straws that aren't even there, man.

it is not on medieval ireland as until england united ireland under its banner as it was never on a typical feudel system before hand it was the same as saxon historic sources confirm this..

and the religion aspect is based on the holy trinity system of the cathlic church GRRM has also made this open using old visualitations for aspects of humanity from old christianty and jewish religions.

ok so if he never looked at pre conquest of england why does he use references to the saxon sargas which he himself has openly said is his favourite part of histroy .....his personal friend bernard cornwall who wrote sword song also does documentories on this period which GRRM has also been part of.


the most infamous story in the saxon cronicels Halley’s Comet appeared in 1066 and was widely taken to be an omen, although its meaning depended on who was watching. It turned to to be a bad omen for Harold. Another man with equal claim to the English throne, William the Conqueror, led the invasion of England in the same year and defeated Harold in the Battle of Hastings. Harold lost his life along with his two remaining brothers in the battle, while William had his foothold in England, allowing him to proceed inland and change history.

Martin’s generic medieval setting crosses the centuries of the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages, from about the time the Romans left Britain in the fifth century to 1485, the end of the Plantagenet Dynasty. This first book, A Game of Thrones, however, seems to be placed in the later centuries of the Dark Ages, say from the 6th and 7th centuries up until the Norman Conquest in 1066. The Saxons, after annihilating the Celts, created what is called the Heptarchy or the Seven Kingdoms: Kent, Sussex, Essex, Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland, and East Anglia.

At various times over the centuries, the king of any one of these kingdoms could be more powerful than the others. Also, these kingdoms often included other mini-kingdoms within their borders. The first true king of a somewhat united England is Æthelstan who ruled from 924 to 939. Is Athelstan GMMR’s Robert Baratheon? Martin’s description of the House Baratheon is “The youngest of the Great Houses, born during the Wars of Conquest” (A Game 810). Æthelstan, king of Mercia and Wessex, certainly faced his own “wars of conquest” with the Norse king, Sitric Caech of York (to whom Æthelstan married his sister) and, at Sitric’s death, with Sitric’s brother Gothfrith, king of Dublin who claimed his brother Sitric’s throne.

look at http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/5115/ all you need to see there

this is written by anouther historian who studied at cambridge and has been at the top of her field for some 25 years.......


7 kingdoms in one country has only ever exsisted in british society.

[Emperor of Hell]

Keep it civil please. Using capslock doesn't improve the quality of your arguments, nor does it help to keep a friendly atmosphere on the forums. Insulting others isn't allowed on these forums and if I see it again I will have to talk to the global moderators.

[mortem et gloria]

Keep it civil please. Using capslock doesn't improve the quality of your arguments, nor does it help to keep a friendly atmosphere on the forums. Insulting others isn't allowed on these forums and if I see it again I will have to talk to the global moderators.

.

its not meant to be me shouting, its so it stands out.

i get your point. but in all fairness westeros.org is also connected to the westeros wiki and GRRMs own website. even they agree with me as its kinda fact..... the majority of westeros is to with england doesnt mean its going to end the same it just shows where he gets his inspiration for his story. you can see how he links in his mind from fact to fiction to how he has come to see his world. it gives his poetic license to do as he will with the story adding his own twists i have edited the first post to include it.

it was meant to be a fun thread where people add there little bits and pieces instead of just trying to knock something which is on one of the official sites...........

nearly everything to do with westeros on a historic cultral and religious basis has a good sence from how england was formed, the stories the actions etc its actually fascinating

for instance saying that there is 7 kingdoms and gods because GRRM thinks its a lucky number is an opinion......... i dont really agree with it as it quite clearly isnt according to his website.

the fact of the opinion is as such

it is based on the following

Ivanhoe

Wilfred of Ivanhoe is disinherited by his father Cedric of Rotherwood for supporting the Norman King Richard and for falling in love with the Lady Rowena, Cedric's ward and a descendant of the Saxon Kings of England. Cedric had planned to marry her to the powerful Lord Aethelstane, pretender to the Crown of England through his descent from the last Saxon King, Harold Godwinson, thus cementing a Saxon political alliance between two rivals for the same claim

War of the Roses

The proof of this is here

Martin's novella, Nightflyers, was adapted into a 1987 feature film that saw national release.

In 1991 Martin briefly returned to writing novels, and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series, A Song of Ice and Fire (ostensibly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe),


now the link so you can see this on his wiki is here http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...e_R._R._Martin

in his biography


can we please stop arguing about this and just do what the topic was meant for which is to pick out things you have noticed.

[The Forgotten]

We don't deny that Westeros has its roots in England. I am just trying to say that its not in every aspect.

[Emperor of Hell]

I do not want to discuss whether you are right or wrong I am just giving you advice to keep it civil. No matter how wrong the others are (In your opinion) insulting isn't allowed. We will not discuss this here anymore anyway.