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Thread: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I don't understand why people focus on the CdeC so much. It consist of only 12 people whereas citizenship has been conferred on 600-700 people. Why is less than 2% of the citizenship body responsible for the supposed decline of the Curia? A better question would be why the great people of previous years have stopped posting here? The biggest problem imo is that many people find it boring here and boredom creates frustration...

    I'd love to see you in CdeC though, Omni get your detective's nose out! ^^

    EDIT: I always saw the Curia as something like the UN. Extremely vital but at the same time often quite useless too...
    Last edited by Boustrophedon; January 08, 2013 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I'd love to have the last application public, not private, but alas that's up to the new citizen to decide.

    However, concerning the "contributing members", Q is right on that one, there's nothing else in the const besides that and the 50 posts and being registered for 2 months and not having received an infraction for 3 months. I can unerstand that he's frustrated, I just don't think that the situation as it exists right now fell from the blue sky. If I read all the applications since the CdeC took over citizen apps from HEX (and I'Ve read nearly 80% of them by now, boy was I bored) there's a clear pattern of rising demand. It's clear to me, that the present situation is just the culmination of a development and, if you take a close look at some periods of time, the standard was sometimes even higher than it is today.

    Also, another clear trend is obviously recognizable, since transparency has been enacted, councillors tend to explain their reason to vote more wordy than they have before. I don't think that's necessarily bad, nor do I think transparency is bad. I just speak for myself, from my own experience, that when you've experienced an ever growin standard combined with getting elected for the first time one can get overcritical and overdemanding without even realising it. I mean, honestly, I like thorough councillors and I like them explainin why they vote how, but I know from my own experience that that can lead to demanding way too much from others, like I did in GB's application or in danny X's or in Shankbots'. I know that I've not been demanding too much from everybody, but those are the ones striking me for loosing the focus on the person and getting lost in thorough research leading to overcritical and overdemanding judgements.

    I know that, I've appologized and I've developed. I'm not saying that I don't want to see applicants contributing, but I say that I've had a very high demand on them and I don't think that that was a good thing. I really got carried away. Nevertheless it's up to councillors discretion and we're held accountable by our peers by vote. I know that a lot of my fellow citizens liked my apporach in research, transparency and demand. But I also think that I was in the wrong concerning the demand.

    Oh boy, I got carried away, sorry for that. What I wanted to say is, that I think that there are reasons for the situation at hand and that it's just a personal and very subjective matter and decision of everybody for themselves to change that, if they so choose.


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  3. #83
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    One of the main reasons the Curia was founded, was so members could be vetted as to who they are, and would have one vote on subjects relating to the community. Therefore giving a representative opinion of the site at large. One of the founding principles of the Curia is subjectivity, and it has always been one of its strongest hands. I debate and argue this issue frequently because I see the Curia losing its ability to be representative/has lost it, based on subjective opinions on erroneous opinions on how citizenship applications should be judged on occasion. Erroneous in the sense that citizenship is clearly not an award or reward in the constitution, it is been treated as such, and I strongly believe it is a flat contradiction of it. Citizenship is a member rank, although I think the way the citizen badge part of the constitution was worded in the Curial reforms probably confused matters, and it obscures the fact citizenship should be conferred on a case by case basis based on an applicants merit to the community, and by definition, the advantages to the site in them having citizenship. "Contributions" in the sense many look at it, is just one aspect of one's merit to the community. Sometimes I wonder if anyone bothers to try understanding or even reading the entire constitution beyond the line "Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen". A statement in itself which is deliberately vague and worthless as it merely says you have an opportunity, if you are "contributing" without barring someone not "contributing" from having an opportunity other than the base-requirements (50 posts, no warnings etc). Personally my understanding of the line is that "contributing" means you're an active poster. It's always been the case with citizenship applications no matter the era anyway.

    I've asked plenty of no-brainers recently for it, and for the most part, the general membership who I've spoken too completely contradict what you've just said. The sole obsession with contributions and nothing else; the turning of citizenship into an award when it isn't in the constitution; and the rejection of several good candidates for citizenship based on flimsy reasoning is extremely damaging to the Curia. Most non-citizens believe the bar is set far too high, and anyone looking at it objectively will come to the same conclusion. The current ethos for extraordinarily high citizenship requirements in comparison to applications in previous years, together with incongruous attempts to ignore the general opinion on the ground in the community at large with "no it's not high" cop outs will eventually put the final nail in the Curial coffin unless something gives.

    Yup. Did try to get a bit of carrot going so more people gave patronizing a go, but I imagine most think it will be a waste of time and effort - based off the same understanding that they're going to have to jump through hoops, juggle and usher in quotes from the likes of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink to get the application passed.

    I have questions for the "not too high" people's. If the Curia isn't representative of the community where vetted members without alts can give valued and verifiable feedback, then what is its use? Are you really suggesting it's all just for giving a pat on the back here and there? Why's the Curia needed for that? ....and where constitutionally does it say citizenship is an award or reward? What's the basis for this viewpoint in the constitution? When did citizenship get moved to the community award section of it? When did simply contributing posts - the classic definition, become not good enough? It feels that way. Where's borispavlovgrozny when you need him?

    I get a feeling my rant will go no where in the end - I've been a citizen nearly eight years now and I've never been as disappointed with the way the Curia is going as I am now. I can't say the problem is individual Councillors as I think on the whole, they're all pretty good. But the current system for patronizing stinks and has bred this atmosphere toward the general membership I truly despise. From my time here, I do also know if you want to change the ethos of the Curia, you've got to set the example yourself. Might be time I think about throwing my hat into the Curial ring again in the next set of elections. Maybe I've thrown enough dirt and strongly worded opinions around to get beaten down to last place by the most glorious abstain!
    Sensible argumentation, but then I would call it a matter of the patrons who do not dare to push for post-contributions as the reason for an applicant, and if they can't argue for it, or rather do not want to argue for it, then why should it be given greater weight then it currently are given?

    Personally I consider myself elected on basis on my post-contributions, not my modding at that time no matter I personally considered myself an 'Artifex' rather than 'Civitate', and honestly belive I based on that alone still would pass today, if presented and argued for properly (again, though clearer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Boustrophedon View Post
    I don't understand why people focus on the CdeC so much. It consist of only 12 people whereas citizenship has been conferred on 600-700 people. Why is less than 2% of the citizenship body responsible for the supposed decline of the Curia? A better question would be why the great people of previous years have stopped posting here? The biggest problem imo is that many people find it boring here and boredom creates frustration...

    I'd love to see you in CdeC though, Omni get your detective's nose out! ^^

    EDIT: I always saw the Curia as something like the UN. Extremely vital but at the same time often quite useless too...
    Excellent formulated.
    The public of this CURIA is pulling the wrong end as usual in my opinion. If we can't make the current citizens active then we wouldn't manage a better percentage if we so made 5000 new citizens in an instance, and the improvment would thus be fictive.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 08, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    As Q said the constitution vaguely describes citizenship, perhaps we should amend the constitution to define citizenship more clearly. If we don't than we have no right to complain when barriers of entry become too easy or difficult as you are agreeing to leave the task of interpreting the application to the CdeC councillors.
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    Diamat's Avatar SHUM
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    As Q said the constitution vaguely describes citizenship, perhaps we should amend the constitution to define citizenship more clearly. If we don't than we have no right to complain when barriers of entry become too easy or difficult as you are agreeing to leave the task of interpreting the application to the CdeC councillors.
    My worry is that by defining citizenship in an authoritative manner (by defining it constitutionally) we are automatically creating the means by which one could be stripped of citizenship. For example, if we were to officially declare in the constitution that citizens are expected to continue to be active and continue to contribute to the site, then we have created a fixed ideal, deviation from which means ostracism.
    Last edited by Diamat; January 09, 2013 at 01:44 AM.





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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    That is something that will have to be defined in the amended version of the constitution
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    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    OK, what is the illness of this Curia?

    I am a bureaucrat to my core, I study Public Management, it's a corner stone of my organizational paradigm.
    Yet what I face here over and over and over again simply stun me. Allow me to call it oganization :wub:, to catch some attention.

    Instead of treating the structure like a tool it is this Curia turned into an end in itself. The very idea of of defining citizenship stricter trough constitution is a symptom.

    Instead of starting to create a vison of what the idea of citizenship is, using the current constitution as a stable wall to lean against allowing creative and modern interpetations, the intentions directly turns to create a set of definitions; like a mimers invisible box. No one is interested to discuss what the idea of citizenship is, but only that it could be regulated or not.
    Instead of reacting, to a regulation, that the main issue with constitutional definitions is that the freedom of defining citizenship among ourselves is lost, the concern instead focus on that it might cause system issues.
    Instead of highlight the fact that it's our way of argumenting for a members citizenship that is a greater issue, propsals directly flows on how to analyze and rearrenge the tools/organization we have for approving the citizenship.
    Instead of starting activities the energy is put into creating a suborganization for activities, and then to scrutiny and recorganize that suborganization.

    And so it goes on.
    The Curia is so self-restricting and paralyzed of its apperent Ideology of Structure - when the irony is that, I dare say, everybody join TWC to have fun and be creative - it removed the Curia participants liberty of mind and actions within.
    And that's the main reason to me why the Curia do not appeal to folk > which is the reason why it is percived important to get more/new citizens > why it is discussed why the requirements are to high.
    The Curia is not the place where things happens. It is the place where decicions are wrestled and voted on, for rules, for an organization or structure, for people, to make things happen.


    To use an analogy the Curia behaves like a movie theater where the real issue is that far to few people come to see any movie while the people with influence tries to solve it by building aditional cinema halls but change nothing else.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 08, 2013 at 11:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    The moment you make Citizenship more than an award and make a chore 75% of people will just drop it, they just don't care.
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    OK, what is the illness of this Curia?

    I am a bureaucrat to my core, I study Public Management, it's a corner stone of my organizational paradigm.
    Yet what I face here over and over and over again simply stun me. Allow me to call it oganization :wub:, to catch some attention.

    Instead of treating the structure like a tool it is this Curia turned into an end in itself. The very idea of of defining citizenship stricter trough constitution is a symptom.

    Instead of starting to create a vison of what the idea of citizenship is, using the current constitution as a stable wall to lean against allowing creative and modern interpetations, the intentions directly turns to create a set of definitions; like a mimers invisible box. No one is interested to discuss what the idea of citizenship is, but only that it could be regulated or not.
    Instead of reacting, to a regulation, that the main issue with constitutional definitions is that the freedom of defining citizenship among ourselves is lost, the concern instead focus on that it might cause system issues.
    Instead of highlight the fact that it's our way of argumenting for a members citizenship that is a greater issue, propsals directly flows on how to analyze and rearrenge the tools/organization we have for approving the citizenship.
    Instead of starting activities the energy is put into creating a suborganization for activities, and then to scrutiny and recorganize that suborganization.

    And so it goes on.
    The Curia is so self-restricting and paralyzed of its apperent Ideology of Structure - when the irony is that, I dare say, everybody join TWC to have fun and be creative - it removed the Curia participants liberty of mind and actions within.
    And that's the main reason to me why the Curia do not appeal to folk > which is the reason why it is percived important to get more/new citizens > why it is discussed why the requirements are to high.
    The Curia is not the place where things happens. It is the place where decicions are wrestled and voted on, for rules, for an organization or structure, for people, to make things happen.


    To use an analogy the Curia behaves like a movie theater where the real issue is that far to few people come to see any movie while the people with influence tries to solve it by building aditional cinema halls but change nothing else.

    I agree with you that we must first define what we want citizenship to mean ( I have made a post about this earlier in the thread) but I disagree with the notion of just leaving it as an Idea since Ideas change with time and with the election of new members to the CdeC. Once we have established what we as citizens want our citizenship to mean, it would be imperative that we write a guideline within the constitution so that the standard is maintained (now the standard may vary from only having to make 50 posts to designing a completely new mod, the choice is ours)

    With that being said I do believe that our standards for entry should be loosened and I have attempted make my term within the CdeC to reflect my views.
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  10. #90
    Omnipotent-Q's Avatar All Powerful Q
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by robinzx View Post
    For example? Why don't you name them so we have something other than hot air to debate over?

    If you feel so strongly about your beliefs you should stand for election I feel. Why not? What is there to lose?
    Oh there's nothing to lose. But all electable positions are coming up in one go for the 27th of Jan election set, and I need to consider which election I'll go for. I won't run for multiple positions - never have, never will, and I've been in the mindset of running in the Magistrate one for at least a month. Probably may run for one of the others instead - I'll have to think about it.

    In regards to the application Aik referenced, I feel the last application regarding mapping would not have passed if I had not intervened to point out some of the new and developing information on the greater capabilities coming forward from the Shogun 2 mod tools, and Steam Workshop. It didn't come up on the agenda until I brought it up like.

    Another one that irked me a bit was this one - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=562235 . I think it was rejected out of hand based on his posts not always been an essay, and my particular gripe - because the application paragraph wasn't again, a horrendously long essay. I also thought some of the advice was a bit patronizing (no pun intended). He was active, and seemingly wants to get involved. Ticks my boxes - there aren't too many interested in getting involved in the Curia as there was previously, and I think Seleukos' generally strong track record at picking citizens wasn't even discussed. I would have trusted his judgement and I think it was a missed opportunity to bring in another person representative of the Mudpit area, particularly when it's a part of the forum that could be discussed more in the Curia (for example the name change proposal for the Mudpit came up recently).

    Next - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=573485 . Ok so there were some concerns raised about some opinion he gave once. But most of us for sure have voiced strong opinions from time to time or crossed the line, and learned from it, and the indications were he had too. I also think it's against the principle of Curial transparency to split off parts of discussions and have them in closed quarters if an application isn't private. The applicant chooses whether to have an application private or public in the constitution - not CdeC, as was done in this case.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=557983 - correct decision and I just want to balance out my post so I don't look like I'd vote yup on everything. I think setting a good example with the badge is important, and I'm more or less against most who have been ostrakoned getting citizenship back. Surprisingly, Ferrets is about the only example of someone who I think could get citizenship back at some point, and I wouldn't necessarily be against it depending on the context.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555947 - the applicant took a lot of time and effort to present his modding contributions, and his paragraph is well above average in the care that has been taken. The WIP progress thing has always been a tricky subject, and of course requires a judgement call. But as many know, and this is true of all games, most mods never get completed. It's not just about whether a mod is completed though. There are other benefits to developing mods - sharing knowledge with other potential modders, as he has done with tutorials and resources for one. Helping other users in the Workshop is something that should always be supported, and such people are good to have as examples of citizenship like behaviour. You give these kind of people who help other users citizenship, other people see the badge, and they look to emulate the efforts. I mean, he puts that much effort into a citizenship application - you gotta think if he puts the same effort into modding, his work in progress' will join his other releases to date in time. I found this line in the application particularly comedic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration
    He's clearly skilled and will be a welcome addition to the Curia when the work's out there.
    Why? Because he's going to be discussing his specific modding work in the Curia? eugh.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=529523 - probably should have been given a chance on his second go.

    Some of the other rejections I agree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethencourt View Post
    And that is it. So appart from an office, patronization and votation what is expected from the citizens?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi
    The Curia is not the place where things happens. It is the place where decicions are wrestled and voted on, for rules, for an organization or structure, for people, to make things happen.
    To cast their ballot in Curia votes. Such votes are valuable as one vote comes from one person - as verified by CdeC, and thus the vote is direct feedback from one of the many people who use the site and community the most. You can't guarantee every active citizen will vote or add an opinion, but if the Curia is more representative, it is a lot more likely to be the case. You get opinions elsewhere for sure- Q&S etc. But, you can exactly start running effective polls on such matters in the public fora, and expect the results to be untainted or not spoiled by a cheeky alt vote here and there. One thing is for sure - the Curia can and has been effective in getting feedback from some of the most active in the community. The problem is, there just isn't enough of them at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boustrophedon
    I don't understand why people focus on the CdeC so much. It consist of only 12 people whereas citizenship has been conferred on 600-700 people. Why is less than 2% of the citizenship body responsible for the supposed decline of the Curia? A better question would be why the great people of previous years have stopped posting here? The biggest problem imo is that many people find it boring here and boredom creates frustration...
    Why the CdeC concentration? Because they hold the keys for creating new citizens and the loss of members over time, as with any forum is expected. Replenishment will surely help greater citizenship lulz! WE MUST HAVE MORE LULZ YE HEAR? Speaking of which...
    Last edited by Omnipotent-Q; January 13, 2013 at 03:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Omni,

    I have read thru your latest post and re-acquainted myself with the cases that you have referred too. I wish to pose a couple of questions, firstly that the majority of applicants in my time, attained citizenship status, whilst a few did not. What you are suggesting is that more of them should have passed and became citizens. If this was to happen, what point would there be in CDEC or any body reviewing these applications and making a decision? It seems to be that you believe that by allowing more citizens, will increase the usuage of the Curia, is that not an illusion, in that the Curia needs to be reformed to represent what is required now and not what it was initially created for?













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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    In regards to the application Aik referenced, I feel the last application regarding mapping would not have passed if I had not intervened to point out some of the new and developing information on the greater capabilities coming forward from the Shogun 2 mod tools, and Steam Workshop. It didn't come up on the agenda until I brought it up like.
    I was late to the party and voted yes (persuading others along the way) once I saw what he was doing with the map, so not much to discuss here.

    Another one that irked me a bit was this one - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=562235 . I think it was rejected out of hand based on his posts not always been an essay, and my particular gripe - because the application paragraph wasn't again, a horrendously long essay.
    My gripe with it wasn't that the posts weren't long (though most were very short indeed), it was that most of his posts added nothing to the sum of the knowledge present in the respective threads. You wouldn't make someone citizen off a load of spam posts in the TD. I don't consider his case much different.

    Next - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=573485 . Ok so there were some concerns raised about some opinion he gave once. But most of us for sure have voiced strong opinions from time to time or crossed the line, and learned from it, and the indications were he had too. I also think it's against the principle of Curial transparency to split off parts of discussions and have them in closed quarters if an application isn't private. The applicant chooses whether to have an application private or public in the constitution - not CdeC, as was done in this case.
    My no vote wasn't based on his attitude. He had several articles which were short and lacked substance, his AARs were abandoned after a handful of updates, his tenure in content had produced a single article, and he had been vault staff for all of 1 month at that point. Is it wrong to ask for a bit of continuity/commitment when the application showed a general lack thereof? A few months of content isn't exactly hard...

    ...and for what it's worth I was told in my own application - way before all this furore over high standards started - that competitions were partaken in for the sake of medals, and therefore shouldn't count towards citizenship.

    Putting the applicant's moment of madness in closed quarters was because it happened in content admin and I wasn't sure if it would contravene SND to post it out in the open.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=557983 - correct decision and I just want to balance out my post so I don't look like I'd vote yup on everything.
    Fair enough.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555947 - the applicant took a lot of time and effort to present his modding contributions, and his paragraph is well above average in the care that has been taken. The WIP progress thing has always been a tricky subject, and of course requires a judgement call. But as many know, and this is true of all games, most mods never get completed. It's not just about whether a mod is completed though. There are other benefits to developing mods - sharing knowledge with other potential modders, as he has done with tutorials and resources for one. Helping other users in the Workshop is something that should always be supported, and such people are good to have as examples of citizenship like behaviour. You give these kind of people who help other users citizenship, other people see the badge, and they look to emulate the efforts. I mean, he puts that much effort into a citizenship application - you gotta think if he puts the same effort into modding, his work in progress' will join his other releases to date in time.
    Looking back his resources and tutorials are good, and should maybe have warranted more consideration. Unanimous no does look harsh in retrospect.

    That said, four and some months hence his WIP work largely remain just that. Four months is a long time - we'd released several playable betas of Sekigahara in less time. I'd be quite disappointed now had I voted yes.

    A philosophical question for you Omni - how low do you think the standards should be? If we make the likes of HissingNewt citizen, we might as well make anyone with 50 (or some higher number) posts and no infractions a citizen? If we made 80% of all members citizens what difference would the Curia have compared to the rest of the forum?

    The current Curia is obsessed with how busy the Curia itself is. For me citizenship is both a reward for solid effort and encouragement for people to do more, and I feel the true role of a citizen should be to encourage peregrinus to contribute positively, reach a suitably high standard, so that they may one day wear the badge. The CdeC is there to maintain that standard by turning away those not worthy. I personally have encouraged several "newbies" to join content, post AARs, do other worthwhile things. Seeing them make progress fills me with far more pride than seeing the post counter go up in the Curia.

    A silver staff medal and a few other decent contributions sustained over a similar period would qualify most people for citizenship I feel. Is six months doing something you hopefully reasonably enjoy really that difficult?

    Btw - hope Shenzhen is living up to expectations. Hi from across the border.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boustrophedon View Post
    I always saw the Curia as something like the UN. Extremely vital but at the same time often quite useless too...
    Nah...the UN is actually useless.
    Last edited by Robin de Bodemloze; January 09, 2013 at 11:19 AM.
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  13. #93
    Bethencourt's Avatar PLVS VLTRA
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post


    To cast their ballot in Curia votes. Such votes are valuable as one vote comes from one person - as verified by CdeC, and thus the vote is direct feedback from one of the many people who use the site and community the most. You can't guarantee every active citizen will vote or add an opinion, but if the Curia is more representative, it is a lot more likely to be the case. You get opinions elsewhere for sure- Q&S etc. But, you can exactly start running effective polls on such matters in the public fora, and expect the results to be untainted or not spoiled by a cheeky alt vote here and there. One thing is for sure - the Curia can and has been effective in getting feedback from some of the most active in the community. The problem is, there just isn't enough of them at the moment.
    That sounds good but all (or most of) the debates here and the polls on decisions and amemdments are about the CVRIA itself, not the site. The TWC is in hand of the administrators and the content staff and they are not making polls here to know our opinion about their work and how we use the TWC. Maybe I am wrong but I have not perceived those movements from administrators or the content staff. And I guess they do not see the CVRIA, even more in the actual state of 50 average active members, as very much representative of the TWC population. I guess they do not get involved in the CVRIA, giving content to it, because it is like an autonomous land, so it has its own constitution and political organization, but the CVRIA cannot go further than its borders. So at the end here we are playing with the constitution and voting offices and citizenship. It is not that bad but the reality is that it is not very appealing as at the end only 50 members are active here in some degree.

    I know you say that if we were more than 50 this would be more representative. Yes, but if we are not asked about TWC by the TWC powers and the CVRIA action is just limited to itself, or there is a more interesting content here or the thing will not change. So the 'What is the CVRIA for?' question is only answered by the said things now, but if we invent another more interesting answer maybe the numbers and the happiness can rise.
    Last edited by Bethencourt; January 09, 2013 at 12:42 PM.

  14. #94
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555947 - the applicant took a lot of time and effort to present his modding contributions, and his paragraph is well above average in the care that has been taken. The WIP progress thing has always been a tricky subject, and of course requires a judgement call. But as many know, and this is true of all games, most mods never get completed. It's not just about whether a mod is completed though. There are other benefits to developing mods - sharing knowledge with other potential modders, as he has done with tutorials and resources for one. Helping other users in the Workshop is something that should always be supported, and such people are good to have as examples of citizenship like behaviour. You give these kind of people who help other users citizenship, other people see the badge, and they look to emulate the efforts. I mean, he puts that much effort into a citizenship application - you gotta think if he puts the same effort into modding, his work in progress' will join his other releases to date in time. I found this line in the application particularly comedic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration
    He's clearly skilled and will be a welcome addition to the Curia when the work's out there.
    Why? Because he's going to be discussing his specific modding work in the Curia? eugh.
    Eugh yourself. I don't expect a debater like s.rwitt to be discussing his particular strengths in the Curia. Yet I voted for him and consider him a welcome addition to the Curia. He's someone who's contributed a lot to the community and so I welcome his input and vote here should he wish to exercise it. This is no different to the attitude I'd have for danny X if he'd finished his big WIPs by the time he applied. We have a different view on citizenship and contributions and have disagreed many times over the years, and that's fine, but I don't understand why you have to be so inflammatory.

  15. #95
    Omnipotent-Q's Avatar All Powerful Q
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    Omni,

    I have read thru your latest post and re-acquainted myself with the cases that you have referred too. I wish to pose a couple of questions, firstly that the majority of applicants in my time, attained citizenship status, whilst a few did not. What you are suggesting is that more of them should have passed and became citizens. If this was to happen, what point would there be in CDEC or any body reviewing these applications and making a decision? It seems to be that you believe that by allowing more citizens, will increase the usuage of the Curia, is that not an illusion, in that the Curia needs to be reformed to represent what is required now and not what it was initially created for?
    Well as I said I'm not suggesting CdeC should let everybody and anybody be a citizen. I merely think the helping of other members is a higher priority than for example, whether every mod someone has worked on has come out. I don't think there should be some artificial level at which someone should be a citizen, but that each decision should reflect the added potential value of someone becoming a citizen. For example, with the helping out in the mod workshop application I cited, the value in adding citizenship would be people noticing the efforts to help other members and could have inspired others to perhaps emulate and replicate that by helping other users too. Every case is different, and it all depends on context, but I just think sometimes there's a little too much weight on supporting members after they've done a bunch of massive contributions, rather than getting in earlier in the cycle and supporting the member along the way as opposed to at the end. I think this would help better network different members too - patronization is a team effort between patron and citizen after all. Who needs a patron anyway, if there's no guidance that really needs to be given or anything like that, because the member been patronized has been around in the community ages anyway?

    Basically helping others members, setting a good posting example that can rub off on other members yadda yadda yadda. Asty put it well with the forrrrce:
    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan Asterix View Post
    Citizenship selection (through precedent) went down a bad, dark, scary road akin to Neo-Facism... one of the reasons I left the CdC. Citizenship should be about activity, and good energy input into the community, and not stricter and stricter pseudo-rules designed to raise the importance and holier-than-thoughness of those that make them.
    Quote Originally Posted by robinzx View Post
    Looking back his resources and tutorials are good, and should maybe have warranted more consideration. Unanimous no does look harsh in retrospect.

    That said, four and some months hence his WIP work largely remain just that. Four months is a long time - we'd released several playable betas of Sekigahara in less time. I'd be quite disappointed now had I voted yes.
    I couldn't disagree more. Looks like he's been LMing, continuing map development on Dragonborn and getting good feedback for it (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=561109), and yet, still helping members too. You've got a more recent mod in terms of the game used, and arguably a bigger team, so it's not a great comparison sah!
    A philosophical question for you Omni - how low do you think the standards should be? If we make the likes of HissingNewt citizen, we might as well make anyone with 50 (or some higher number) posts and no infractions a citizen? If we made 80% of all members citizens what difference would the Curia have compared to the rest of the forum?
    As above. Activity in the community is a bigger factor than expecting everyone to have a massive over-the-top list of mod contributions or having debated since the dawn of time etc.
    Btw - hope Shenzhen is living up to expectations. Hi from across the border.
    You too man. Although, you've got Disneyland your side of border and other potentially hilarious drunken larks, so you must be having a ball!
    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    Eugh yourself. I don't expect a debater like s.rwitt to be discussing his particular strengths in the Curia. Yet I voted for him and consider him a welcome addition to the Curia. He's someone who's contributed a lot to the community and so I welcome his input and vote here should he wish to exercise it. This is no different to the attitude I'd have for danny X if he'd finished his big WIPs by the time he applied. We have a different view on citizenship and contributions and have disagreed many times over the years, and that's fine, but I don't understand why you have to be so inflammatory.
    I meant no offense, and apologise for any inadvertently given out. That goes to anyone when it comes to my opinions on the Curia as I respect you all. Expect maybe that guy with the caped white coat and beard... Alas, I think the particular decision was deplorable and I reserve the right to prod people I vote for with a large stick!

    I have a question. If Danny x was a debater, would you have been in favour of him being a citizen?

    Under the patronage of the Legendary Urbanis Legio - Mr Necrobrit of the Great House of Wild Bill Kelso. Honoured to have sponsored these great warriors for Citizenship - Joffrey Baratheon, General Brittanicus, SonOfOdin, Hobbes., Lionheartx10, Mangerman, Gen. Chris and PikeStance.

  16. #96
    Robin de Bodemloze's Avatar Sugar free
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Looks like he's been LMing, continuing map development on Dragonborn and getting good feedback for it (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=561109), and yet, still helping members too. You've got a more recent mod in terms of the game used, and arguably a bigger team, so it's not a great comparison sah!
    We'll leave it at philosophical differences then. I simply want to see something finished, or at least playable. Upon the release of something playable I'd gladly vote yes.

    Sekigahara (up to the fifth beta or therabouts) was made by a team of three guys. I'm counting about six for Dragonborn.

    As above. Activity in the community is a bigger factor than expecting everyone to have a massive over-the-top list of mod contributions or having debated since the dawn of time etc.
    We just have different perceptions of quantity/quality then. I simply feel posting falls on a spectrum between pointless spam and new knowledge like spartan warrior's map thing, and we should set the bar for citizenship some distance from the former, whereas you are happy with simple unqualified "activity".

    I've frequented several forums in the past which have a two tier system. Our version of it is actually one of the less strict ones to be honest.

    You too man. Although, you've got Disneyland your side of border and other potentially hilarious drunken larks, so you must be having a ball!
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  17. #97
    Raritу's Avatar Glück auf!
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Who first made that WIP works = no contribution standard may I ask?

    That leads me to a question: would mods like AUH and WOTW be considered as contributions to the site with the current view? Apparently they aren't, since we can not download them. yet.

    Well for me it's an unfair standard. For example, AUH and Variagmod 2.0 were two of the mods that brought me to TWC, so that I could keep track with them more easily. Though they still haven't been released (and probably not any time near in the future), but nonetheless they have been a (glorious) part of TWC, and have been improving it in certain ways, such as increasing the traffic with the news of the cool mods, and the most impressive previews of their works are sure to make people enjoy.

    So why shouldn't they be considered as contributions? Must you be able to download in order to enjoy them? Maybe. Must they be downloadable to improve and be, again, a contribution to the site? No. Thus you can't compare an unreleased mod with an unposted post. The latter is truly useless to the site, while the former obviously may not.

    So to sum up, here's my point: We shouldn't judge a modding application on whether his mod is released or not, but rather the amount of work he has put in, and perhaps it's potential if you want.
    My, I hope I'm making sense


    By the way I pretty much agree with Asterix's point, just that it's not likely to happen any time soon now.
    Last edited by Raritу; January 11, 2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  18. #98
    Aikanár's Avatar Darth Moped
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    The problem with "released" and mapping contribs is, that the work is most of the times finished way before the release of the mod. So if you want to have the work released, that means waiting time. His DB map is finished. Well he can do some polishing here and some polishing there, but it's not like DB wouldn't be playable because of a missing map, if the mod would be released right now.

    Edit:
    "Who first made that WIP works = no contribution standard may I ask?"
    After a quick search in the Politia and the Antechamber the first case where unreleased modding work was mentioned as a concern was in '08. I can't quote it here, since it's private.

    There are several older cases in which multiple work in progress is mentioned as an indicator for positive involvement in the community, while the applicants in question had solid contributions under their belt also.

    Then there is to add, that the more you go back in time to pre-tranparency applications, councillor's posts tend to become less wordy (not every time of course), meaning "yes" or "no" or a one-liner. Don't get me wrong, no qualifying statement here, just what you can find.

    Also, the earliest artifex applications such as Apoc's, Vlad's, makanyane's, Atterdag's, ferres &c. where pretty much no-brainers.
    Last edited by Aikanár; January 11, 2013 at 12:26 PM.


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  19. #99
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent-Q View Post
    I have a question. If Danny x was a debater, would you have been in favour of him being a citizen?
    Depends on what he'd been up to. Good debating tends to add things to discussion immediately as it is created (unlike creating a texture that isn't released for example). Is the qualitative difference between modding and debating what you're getting at or is it something else?

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    I guess Q's point is, he will surely correct me if I interpret him wrong, that you cannot take the debate home or download it, so to speak. You read it, participate in it, enjoy it. A post in it is an immediate contribution and others can reply to that.

    In comparison, if you have a picture of a texture or a map or explained a game mechanic you want to implement, you as well have contributed immediately when you post that and elaborate on it. Others can read your post, can comment on it, can propose something, can enjoy that and can look forward to the progress and release. So basically, previewed work is pretty much comparable to partaking in a discusssion.

    Hence why apply a standard on modding that you don't apply on debating or creative writing or local moderation or role playing or anything else. All those contributions are based upon posts, not on downloads, while only modding as a contribution is reduced to downloadability in the end, regardless of how good a preview-, developing-, proposal- or idea-thread/post might be.


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