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Thread: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    I know the Constitution doesn't say that but that's how I see it.
    How you see it is irrelevant, what the constitution says is all that counts, otherwise what's the point of the constitution if every member can interpret it to mean whatever they want it to mean.

    The Constitution doesn't say anything about making previous contributions either, so it's safe to say that neither of our positions are based on it.
    No it doesn't, and when the constitution is silent on something that's where individual opinion and interpretation comes into play. This is particularly true when CdeC is supposed to determine if a candidate "contributions" are adequate to become a citizen, neither contribution nor adequate are defined leaving it open to interpretation.

    I don't think the contributions are nullified and so the only thing would stop a removed citizen from being readmitted, in my books, is whether the behaviour is adequate.
    That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, however using your example of Ferrets this statement doesn't even agree with your what your actions would be. His behaviour is terrible, always has been always will be, his contributions of real value are next to non-existant, and yet just because he had citizenship before you want to give it back to him. He didn't deserve it in the first place and his actions since before then and certainly since afterwards have proven that again and again and again.

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  2. #122
    Pontifex Maximus's Avatar Milka Maniac
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Reflect on the quality of the CdeC instead of the applicants and many of your questions will be answered.



  3. #123
    Leonidas The Lion's Avatar Until we win! Or die.
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus Snape View Post
    Reflect on the quality of the CdeC instead of the applicants and many of your questions will be answered.
    You saying something there pops?

    Seriously, please explain.
    Last edited by Leonidas The Lion; February 03, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
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  4. #124
    Pontifex Maximus's Avatar Milka Maniac
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonidas The Lion View Post
    You saying something there pops?

    Seriously, please explain.
    I should have said qualities, not quality.

    We obsess over the quality and quantity of citizen applications, a variable that remains more or less constant (and according to some, irrelevant) when broken down to its basic points. The CdeC constantly changes both in membership and in condition (via the TWCC) and yet we pay very little attention to that. Changing biases, attitudes and backgrounds influence citizenship applications in a much more significant way. I've been looking at those applications for years and they're all pretty much the same in form and content with little exception.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; February 03, 2013 at 03:59 PM.



  5. #125
    Leonidas The Lion's Avatar Until we win! Or die.
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    Default Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus Snape View Post
    We obsess over the quality and quantity of citizen applications, a variable that remains more or less constant when broken down to its basic points. The CdeC constantly changes both in membership and in condition (via the TWCC) and yet we pay very little attention to that. Changing biases, attitudes and backgrounds influence citizenship applications in a much more significant way. I've been looking at those applications for years and they're all pretty much the same in form and content with little exception.
    Well the standard have increased over time. I mean I don't need to tell you that If you or I applied today with the contributions we had in our old apps that we wouldn't pass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
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  6. #126
    Pontifex Maximus's Avatar Milka Maniac
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonidas The Lion View Post
    Well the standard have increased over time. I mean I don't need to tell you that If you or I applied today with the contributions we had in our old apps that we wouldn't pass.
    I don't buy it. Standards fluctuate based on the arbitrary standards of the people in office and are never the same applicant to applicant. We're tying to measure and immeasurable thing.



  7. #127
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus Snape View Post
    I don't buy it. Standards fluctuate based on the arbitrary standards of the people in office and are never the same applicant to applicant. We're tying to measure and immeasurable thing.
    Yep, you are right, standards do fluctuate and are hardly measurable. But, imagine if they were measurable. What we would notice is that there exists a mean. We would also notice that there exist deviations from that mean. While the mean is only slowly shifting over time, deviations are much more noticeable. These deviations are essentially what you are noticing, which usually have to do with the unique character of each councilor. Nevertheless, despite this, there does exist an undefined mean. We know this because no councilor would accept a citizen with, say, only one Helios article and nothing else. While we can't pinpoint the mean, it has established itself through institutional practice. As councilors gradually raised the bar over time, the citizens they accepted were institutionalized into this standard. As they became councilors, they did not deviate too far from that standard, gradually raising it themselves.

    And so it continued until we have reached our blessed day. Behold! Diamat knows all!





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  8. #128
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    That doesn't change the fact that somebody above the undefined mean can be rejected for arbitrary reasons.



  9. #129
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Name one committee driven process that's not prone to the whims of the members of said committee?
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin de Bodemloze View Post
    Name one committee driven process that's not prone to the whims of the members of said committee?
    It's a spectrum



  11. #131
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus Snape View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that somebody above the undefined mean can be rejected for arbitrary reasons.
    Granted, but I'd say the current system is working pretty damn well, where huge deviations usually do not occur.





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  12. #132
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    Granted, but I'd say the current system is working pretty damn well, where huge deviations usually do not occur.
    I see the Curia-Illuminati-Mod-Nazis have trained thee well.

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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    I see the Curia-Illuminati-Mod-Nazis have trained thee well.
    Indeed. I am expecting a promotion and medal soon.





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  14. #134
    Aikanár's Avatar ready to do that?
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Who's illuminated?


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  15. #135
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    Default Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?

    Absolutely not. The rank of citizen is a privilege for the elite few who go above and beyond to make TWC the interesting, content rich site it is today. It is supposed to be hard to become one unless you truly have done something of merit. I think the requirements are fine.

    Not to mention since citizens have a say in how the site is run it makes sense to have veteran members with the focus and intelligence to create something worthy of the rank voting on pressing issues.
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