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Thread: Slavic Hillforts

  1. #1
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Slavic Hillforts

    I have found very interesting and well written page about the Slavic hillforts from the time of the Principality of Great Moravia. It contains even some articels (or at least one) written in english so I posted it here in hope it helps you with research for the AoD IV.
    Looking forward to the fruits of your hadr work guys

    Here is the link:
    http://www.hradiska.sk/2011/05/hillf...ements-in.html

  2. #2
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    Thanks for the link

  3. #3
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    I have checked the page today and I think this site is indeed very very useful. Insofar thank you very much for the information.
    I'm sure that we can do something concerning the coding - so that the general appearance of slavic settlements and/or fortesses will look like that. At least similar like the shown examples.
    Is it also an option for AoD2 (527-~636AD)? I think so.
    Last edited by Pompeius Magnus; December 15, 2012 at 08:54 AM.

  4. #4
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    That would be really amazing if you manage to make something similar like that. And knowing the AoD team I am pretty confident you do
    Is it also an option for AoD2 (527-~636AD)? I think so.
    I think so as well. However, I have to make some research prior to tell you for sure. I have read that there are serious theories that Wogastisburg, the fortress (castrum) of Samo (Slavic king of Frankish origin), which Frankish king Dagobert tried to conquer, was built on top of the ruins of Roman Carnuntum which makes interesting idea to customized settlement plan in my oppinion
    Last edited by demagogos nicator; December 16, 2012 at 12:25 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    Idea that slavic settlements and/or fortesses will look similar like the shown examples from the site http://www.hradiska.sk/search/label/...ora%20%28CZ%29 - that is realy fantastic news. I have allways missed slavic hillforts in games. It would cause a great joy to many people in slavic countries!

  6. #6
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    I tried to find some informatios about slavic hillforts ( called gorod or gord in the proto-slavic language, later grad, gard or gorod) in the 6th/7th century AD. Here is the result:

    The oldest known Slavic hillforts came from the area around the middle Dnieper River (The are of Pripet/Pripyat in moder northern Ukraine and souther Belarus traditionaly calimed as a original homeland of Slavs) and were built by the representants of Korchak culture probably between the years 500 and 550 AD. However, there were found only two hillforts from this timeframe in the area and also finds of hillforts from later periods are quite rare. It is interesting that while one of these two hillforts is a clasical slavic circular marsh hillfort the other one is built in the top of the hill - representing both of the two main types of slavic hillforts - circular hillfort built in the middle of the marsh, offen connected with the land only with the bridge/bridges and hillfort built on the top of the hill (this one do not have standart size or shape as it usualy copys the terrain).

    Hillforts seems to be mostly the phenomenon of the western Slavs (althought there are also known hillforts from the Rus) for whose they were also very important culturaly. The oldest western-slavic hillforts strated to be built in the 6th century in the area of Vistula river in todays Poland and were gradualy upgraded untill the 10th century when the usage and architecture of hillforts reached its peak. The oldest slavic hillforts were usualy built in the middle of to the agricultural settlements whose they should protect. Most of the early hillforts of the Vistula river area are the circular or oval marsh hillforts of the smaller sizes, however, it seems that this type is dominant only because of the lack of the terrain offering natural defence in the area and hilltop hillforts were build whenever terain allowed it. Paradoxly, the largest Polish hillfort covering the area more than 20 hectars originates in this period covers and is built on hilltop. The early slavic hillforts were typicaly fortified by circular wall of earth with simple or double palisade on the top surrounded by the moat (there could be several of them).

    At the end of the 7th century and begining of the eight century see the westward expantion of the slavic hilforts as well as social and economical changes in the slavic society (using better craftsmanship technologies, higher level of social organization, formation and growing importance of nobility) As a side note, the process of groving importance of slavic nobility culminated by building private hillforts of the nobles, with representative and residental function (curtis) in the Great Moravia of late 9th century (theese were very similar to the franksih curtis from the 8th and 9th century). In conection with slavic population in eastern Geramany is interesting that it is only place where the the western Slavs builded wooden pagan sanctuaries (as we know from the medieval german sources) while otherwise western Slavs worshiped their gods under skies (after conversion to christianity building of stone churches was characteristic for otherwise almost exclusive wood using Slavs). For the area of Lower Lusatia (Luzyce, Lužyca) are typical small circular hilforts in average about 25 meters wide fortified by more technicaly advanced combinated wooden-earth wall.

    There is complete absence of hillfort from this period in todays Chech republic (except southern Moravia where several well fortified settlements from 7th century were found)and Slovakia (for this area in the 7th century is typical its unique village society with mixed avaro-slavic element. However, after the fall of Avar Khaganate at the end of the 8th and begining of the 9th century there is great boom in building fortified settlements of various types and functions, using various types of fortication including advanced combinated stone-wooden wall.
    Last edited by demagogos nicator; December 20, 2012 at 02:45 AM.

  7. #7
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    Here are some illustrative images:

    Reconstruction of Leczyca,middle Vistula, Poland - hillfort form the end of the 6th century (although, inner wall was probably simplier in this period)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The area today:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Link to a document containing examples of early slavic houses (the document contains english and german overview of the subject)
    http://archeologia.fphil.uniba.sk/at...3Salkovsky.pdf

    The hillfort Stradów, biggest slavic hillfort in Poland:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Reconstruction of slavic settlemnet with small cirkular hillfort in Gross Raden, eastern Germany:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Reconstruction of slavic shrine in Gross Raden
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Gross Raden gate of the fortress (tunel in the earth wall) and view on the village from the walls of hillfort:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This seems to be german page dedicated to slavic fortified settlements:
    http://slawenburgen.npage.de/mecklen...mmern-a-m.html

    Example of Great Moravian curtis form the late 9th century in Ducove (near the town of Piešťany) western Slovakia:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Area today (partialy reconstructed):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here you can find pictures of various technologies of wall construction:
    http://www.hradiska.sk/2010/05/konst...h-hradisk.html

    Wall construction of Great Moravian hillfort Gars Thunau in lower Austria:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Hillfort Tlmače, central Slovakia, an examlpe of hillfort built on the natural hilltop:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Reconstruction and map of Mikulčice (Southern Moravia, Chech Republic), the bigest found Great Moravian settlement, possibly capital of the principality. It is also one of the few south-moravian hillforts founded alredy in the 7th century.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by demagogos nicator; December 20, 2012 at 12:16 AM.

  8. #8

    Default

    Here are two examples of wall construction of important hillforts:

    Nitra http://www.cevnad.sav.sk/rekonstrukc...Dia/index.html

    Majcichov:

    http://www.cevnad.sav.sk/rekonstrukc...Majcichov.html

    And here, is very important new discovered hillfort Bojná - there is lot of pics of how the fort looks like today

    http://www.hradiska.sk/search/label/Bojná
    Last edited by Pompeius Magnus; December 21, 2012 at 04:03 AM.

  9. #9
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    WOW
    thank you very much for both of you regarding this phantastic research. The slavic faction is probably at the moment a little bit underrated in AoD2. Since we have some ressources left in AoD2 we will think about it to include a small independent slaciv faction (beside the other free rebels/ independent nations).
    That leads of course to the question about the unit names. Since I'm quite sure that the slavic people hadn't unit names like "heavy-spear men" or "mounted spear men" we have to find some proper names. What about tribal names?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    Important source from 8 th century with names of slavic tribes is so called Bavarian Geographus. List of tribes you find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Geographer For me are very interesting two triber: Marharii (number 11) - - Moravians - todays eastern Czech republic, then Merehanos (number 13, todays Slovaks) and Beheimare (number 10 todays Czechs)

    There is also written how many hillforts did they have in those times (for example Slovaks 30 )

  11. #11
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Slavic Hillforts

    Quote Originally Posted by Pompeius Magnus View Post
    WOW
    thank you very much for both of you regarding this phantastic research. The slavic faction is probably at the moment a little bit underrated in AoD2. Since we have some ressources left in AoD2 we will think about it to include a small independent slaciv faction (beside the other free rebels/ independent nations).
    That leads of course to the question about the unit names. Since I'm quite sure that the slavic people hadn't unit names like "heavy-spear men" or "mounted spear men" we have to find some proper names. What about tribal names?
    I can not believe my eyes, the idea of slavic faction in AoD2 is something I have not even hoped After christmas I will try to search more about the names of the slavic tribes in AoD2 timeframe but I am affraid there is only little known about the names of the slavic tribes in this period. There are only few historical sources for the early Slavs (writings of Prokopius are probably most important of them) and a lot of things we know about the Slavs came only from the archeological records.

    The Slavs are in contemporary sources usualy mentioned just as Sclaveni, Antes or Wends. However, these names seems not to be a tribal names but rather some kind of cathegorization of slavic tribes according the place where they are living (Scalveni - western Balakns, Antes - eastern Balkans, this name very probably came from sarmatian language and therefore there are some speculations about them beeing mixed alano-slavic ethnic, Wends - mostly used for western Slavs from central and northern Europe).

    Problematic is also the fact that many slavic tribes refered to themselves just as Sloveni (meaning Slavs) no mather where they were from or to which tribal group they belonged (from those root came all the names like Slovenia, Slovakia, Slavonia etc). The first real tribal names came from the places where Slavs first time came to the more intensive contact with the Roman Empire (7th century southern slavic tribes settled in the Balkans). Franks used to refer to the neighbouring slavic tribes just as Wends in most cases.

    The alredy mentioned Bavarian Geographer is vey important source about the Slavic tribes and their settlements from the 9th century but I do not think that 9th century tribal names could be used for AoD2 timeframe and there is a lot of disputes amongs the historians about the interpretation of particular latinized names of the slavic tribes (typical example are alredy mentioned Marharii and Merehani. It is generaly believed that both terms Moravians but while some historians believe that one term is refering that one term is refering to the inhabitants of Principality of Great Moravia and other term is refering to the Slavs settled around river Moravia in modern day Serbia others believe that Marharii should refer to the inhabitants of Principality of Moravia and Merehani to the inahbaitants of Principality of Nitra - both core territories of later Principality of Great Moravia).

    Maybe you are interesting in someone who is able to translate the names of the slavic units into protoslavic language. Unfortunately I am not able to help you with this but I am sure there are some people around who has more knoweledge of protoslavic language in M2TW kingdom hosted mod forums.
    Last edited by demagogos nicator; December 23, 2012 at 03:14 PM.

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