The Conquest Of Asia

[kirush2]

Want to make a mod about East Asia 1600 - 1750 years. I can do everything ( units, map, scripts, buildings), but I want to learn wondering whether it is someone else. I alone made a mod about Asia 1279-1400 years, but on the engine, Rome-BI. East Asia: Mongol Invasion. Of particular interest was not. The period from 1600 year, I think that more interesting. Invasion of the Europeans, the conquest of Siberia by Russia, invasion of Japan in Korea, the Manchus in China, wars Mogul Empire. I wonder whether it is someone else?

[UchihaMadara21]

Dude, if you want information about the Mughal Empire and India, you can count with me....YOU, with your UNBELIEVABLE abilities (i'm still shocked with the naval battles) could make something epic.

Look at what this guy did using RTW engine:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And just look at that:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Imagine a mod like that (in a even more interesting period) in Medieval II?...with superior graphics and all?
...this guy needs help!!!

[Alkimachos]

Naval battles in RTW???

[Archagetes]

WOW!

[Vipman]

How in the world? Without hacking the game engine or something???

[Pazu the Kitsune]

kirsuh, a few things:

1 - I want you to know that you are possibly one of the most talented modders out there....and i truly mean this.....i believe that any mod you put your heart into will not only be completed but will be awesome

2 - Technically i have my own mod that covers Southeast Asia from 1602-1688, but its currently on hiatus, heres the thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ht=Shadow+Naga

3 - Apologies for not helping you as much with the mod for Rome TW - I much prefer the Medieval 2 engine over the Rome engine, plus Asian history before the 16th century does not interest me as much.

But, if you are truly serious about making this mod, then know that i will help in every way i can....and this time i actually will....

Much of the research for the SE Asian factions has already been done.....i can help immensely with any faction south of China.

To start off with we should come up with a suitable name + what years it will cover....Conquest of Asia doesnt particularly grab me.....

Since China is the largest faction + is in the center of the map, i think we should set the years the mod covers around it....How about 1627 (beginning of the reign of Chongzhen Emperor, last Emperor of the Ming dynasty) to 1722 (end of the reign of the Kangxi Emperor and longest reign in Chinese history).

[UchihaMadara21]

kirsuh, a few things:

1 - I want you to know that you are possibly one of the most talented modders out there....and i truly mean this.....i believe that any mod you put your heart into will not only be completed but will be awesome

2 - Technically i have my own mod that covers Southeast Asia from 1602-1688, but its currently on hiatus, heres the thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ht=Shadow+Naga

3 - Apologies for not helping you as much with the mod for Rome TW - I much prefer the Medieval 2 engine over the Rome engine, plus Asian history before the 16th century does not interest me as much.

But, if you are truly serious about making this mod, then know that i will help in every way i can....and this time i actually will....

Much of the research for the SE Asian factions has already been done.....i can help immensely with any faction south of China.

To start off with we should come up with a suitable name + what years it will cover....Conquest of Asia doesnt particularly grab me.....

Since China is the largest faction + is in the center of the map, i think we should set the years the mod covers around it....How about 1627 (beginning of the reign of Chongzhen Emperor, last Emperor of the Ming dynasty) to 1722 (end of the reign of the Kangxi Emperor and longest reign in Chinese history).

1627 seems to be a reasonable start date to me. Mainly because of Shah Jahan; but it's Kirush's decision. It would be also good for the Mughals to start it at 1600, and cover the last years of Jalal-ud-Din Akbar (greatest Mughal emperor), but 1627 seems really good for all factions.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

I have no objection to the inclusion of the Mughals, but do we really want to go that far west?

If i were to say id have the map cut off in Bangladesh, and cut off at north china in the north, this way we could have the Mughals, and Tibet, but exclude factions like Russia, Zunghar, Kashgar, and the other Indian factions, and possibly include other Indian factions like Assam or Manipur.....Russia wasnt really involved in the region until the 19th century anyways....also, Medieval 2 can support a maximum of 30 factions, and SE Asia alone can realistically take up 20 faction slots....

[Pazu the Kitsune]

To give you an idea, Shadow of the Naga (which covers only SE Asia) was set to include these factions:

-Sulu Sultanate
-Brunei Sultanate
-Dayak Tribes
-Banjar Sultanate
-Banten Sultanate
-Aceh Sultanate
-Johor Sultanate
-Kedah-Patani Sultanate
-Kingdom of Ayutthaya (Siamese)
-Kingdom of Oudong (Khmer)
-Lan Xang Federation (Lao)
-Trinh Lords (Viet)
-Nguyen Lords (Viet)
-Mac Lords (Viet)
-Ming Dynasty
-Toungoo Dynasty (Burma)
-Shan States (Burma)
-Kingdom of Arakan (Burma)
-Kingdom of Manipur (India)
-Kingdom of Assam (India)
-Portugal
-VOC
-Spain
-Qing Dynasty (emergent)
-Kingdom of Tungning (emergent)
-Kingdom of Vientiane (emergent)
-France (emergent)

=27 factions O.o

Now obviously we could exclude some of those but you have to realize that the more area you cover the less detailed you can get with each individual region.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

England Should Also be an Emergent faction since after 1700 and 1754 they started to fight with France for control of the Indian territories.

[kirush2]

England Should Also be an Emergent faction since after 1700 and 1754 they started to fight with France for control of the Indian territories.

How long has it Indians live in Asia?
England will not. Will the Netherlands, Spain and ,may be, Portugal. Date of start of the campaign for me, not of principle. For me important is the gameplay, the complexity. Neither in Medieval2, nor in Rome position of the faction at the moment of the start of the campaign does not correspond to the historicity of the 90 % . In our mod Vice-versa 90% will correspond to, and 10% no.

[UchihaMadara21]

I have no objection to the inclusion of the Mughals, but do we really want to go that far west?

If i were to say id have the map cut off in Bangladesh, and cut off at north china in the north, this way we could have the Mughals, and Tibet, but exclude factions like Russia, Zunghar, Kashgar, and the other Indian factions, and possibly include other Indian factions like Assam or Manipur.....Russia wasnt really involved in the region until the 19th century anyways....also, Medieval 2 can support a maximum of 30 factions, and SE Asia alone can realistically take up 20 faction slots....

Actually, the territories of Assam and Manipur are in this map (these in grey), but i don't know why they weren't listed though. Removing great kingdoms like Bijapur, Golkonda and Vijayanagara would destroy the balance in India (if Assam and Manipur are assumed to be portrayed accurately, they would have a small territory, with only 1 city...an easy target for the OP Mughals). We should maintain the great empires...and an strong Hindu faction (Vijayanagara), and finally Khmers, Burma and Vietnam at the east. About removing some territories in Russia, i think it's reasonable...

[kirush2]

I have no objection to the inclusion of the Mughals, but do we really want to go that far west?

If i were to say id have the map cut off in Bangladesh, and cut off at north china in the north, this way we could have the Mughals, and Tibet, but exclude factions like Russia, Zunghar, Kashgar, and the other Indian factions, and possibly include other Indian factions like Assam or Manipur.....Russia wasnt really involved in the region until the 19th century anyways....also, Medieval 2 can support a maximum of 30 factions, and SE Asia alone can realistically take up 20 faction slots....

Russia has to 1650, conquered the territory from Siberia to the Pacific ocean and led war against Manchu .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%E2%8...rder_conflicts If we want to remove Russia, then will have to cut the map. Then shall cut half-Japan, part of Korea and Manchuria. Show me how it will look on the map and I agree with you. But cut India or Dzungars I don't agree in any case.
I'm not going to do the mod only about South-East Asia.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Russia has to 1650, conquered the territory from Siberia to the Pacific ocean and led war against Manchu .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%E2%8...rder_conflicts If we want to remove Russia, then will have to cut the map. Then shall cut half-Japan, part of Korea and Manchuria. Show me how it will look on the map and I agree with you. But cut India or Dzungars I don't agree in any case.
I'm not going to do the mod only about South-East Asia.

Thats perfectly fine if you want to cover more than just Southeast Asia, i kindof expected that from the start....what i had in mind was more like this:



Except going a little farther South (include Java but nothing further south of that island), and a little farther west (include an eastern part of Bangladesh).....

This way we could work it out so that Assam + Manipur are there from the start, each one controlling 1 territory, 'Bangladesh' territory will be rebel, with the Mughals and possibly the Russians as emergent.....an alternative to this is literally leave the western border the same as in the image above, and not include the Mughals at all, but leave Assam and/or Manipur and group them into an existing Culture group.

Cultures might look something like this:
-Japanese
-Chinese (includes Korea + Vietnam)
-Siamese (includes Laos + Cambodia)
-Burmese-Indian (includes all Burmese + Indian factions, plus Tibet)
-Malay (includes all of the 'island' factions)
-European (Portuguese, VOC, Spanish and French is they are to be included)

The reason why i dont think its a very good idea to include India is because there are alot more factions that were present that we would have to try to cover, which would take away from the historical accuracy of other factions....

You kindof have to decide between a less accurate mod that covers a larger area, or a more accurate mod that covers a smaller area.....with a good degree of flexibility mainland SE asia alone takes up 7 faction slots (Nguyen Lords, Trinh Lords, Khmer, Lan Xang Federation, Siam, Toungoo Burma and Kingdom of Arakan)....i dont see how you could realistically exclude any of those factions....Island SE Asia takes up about 8 more (VOC, Portugal, Aceh, Johor, Banten, Brunei, Banjar and Spain)...again very difficult to realistically exclude any of those factions.....thats 15 factions.....just to try to get my point across, but again like i says you really have to decide upon that for yourself.

[UchihaMadara21]

Thats perfectly fine if you want to cover more than just Southeast Asia, i kindof expected that from the start....what i had in mind was more like this:



Except going a little farther South (include Java but nothing further south of that island), and a little farther west (include an eastern part of Bangladesh).....

This way we could work it out so that Assam + Manipur are there from the start, each one controlling 1 territory, 'Bangladesh' territory will be rebel, with the Mughals and possibly the Russians as emergent.....an alternative to this is literally leave the western border the same as in the image above, and not include the Mughals at all, but leave Assam and/or Manipur and group them into an existing Culture group.

Cultures might look something like this:
-Japanese
-Chinese (includes Korea + Vietnam)
-Siamese (includes Laos + Cambodia)
-Burmese-Indian (includes all Burmese + Indian factions, plus Tibet)
-Malay (includes all of the 'island' factions)
-European (Portuguese, VOC, Spanish and French is they are to be included)

The reason why i dont think its a very good idea to include India is because there are alot more factions that were present that we would have to try to cover, which would take away from the historical accuracy of other factions....

You kindof have to decide between a less accurate mod that covers a larger area, or a more accurate mod that covers a smaller area.....with a good degree of flexibility mainland SE asia alone takes up 7 faction slots (Nguyen Lords, Trinh Lords, Khmer, Lan Xang Federation, Siam, Toungoo Burma and Kingdom of Arakan)....i dont see how you could realistically exclude any of those factions....Island SE Asia takes up about 8 more (VOC, Portugal, Aceh, Johor, Banten, Brunei, Banjar and Spain)...again very difficult to realistically exclude any of those factions.....thats 15 factions.....just to try to get my point across, but again like i says you really have to decide upon that for yourself.

I really can't understand the bolded part. If removing those factions you mentioned is difficult, removing India and the Mughals is like cutting the arms and legs of Asia. As i said before, Manipur and Assam aren't strong representatives of India or southeast Asia. Even if they had strong military, the player couldn't sustain a expansion campaign against any other faction (if they are intended to be portrayed accurately), and they could fall easily...Mughals as emergents? NO , it's total bloody overkill!!! (in reality, Assam resisted well against them, but in the game, very little territory and little army means defeat) With the map kirush presented, almost none of these factions that you mentioned would be excluded...the cultures and it's corresponding factions wouldn't change too much, and actually, you can add one more culture (maximum of 7)...

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Yeah my only point was that the bigger an area you cover, the less detailed you can get with each individual region.....the map that kirush presents on the OP depicts India as being divided between 4 factions, when in reality there were probably more smaller ones and also likely emergent ones....there will inevitably be smaller factions, such as Kingdom of Tungning or the Sulu Sultanate, that are no less interesting but will still have to be excluded because of their small size or limited existence.

[Wallachian]

Wow those images from Rome TW are amazing! You are very talented! I must admint i am not very interested in Asian history, but a mod like this I would definetly play. Best of luck! Hope to learn more about SE Asian history from your mod.

[kirush2]

Pazu the Kitsune - you are a great expert on the South-East Asia, but I'm not. But I think you are a bad specialist on the history of Europe. If the creators of Medieval2 acted like you, there would not have had any number of factions. In the original game are not represented Burgundy, Bohemia, Sweden, Navarre, Aragon, Croatia, Serbia, Moldova, Bulgaria,Wales, Ireland, Lithuania, Masovia, Vladimir Principality, Galician Principality, Cumans, Alans, Georgia, Cilicia, Armenia, Shirvan, Genoese Republic, Florence and so on and so forth. They also played an important role in the history of Europe. If you create everything with historical accuracy, it is not enough and 100 factions. We take the most important and strong states.
1 Ming
2 Qing
3 Mongol
4 Korea
5 Japan
6 Tibet
7 Zunghar
8 Kashgar
9 Moghul
10 Vijayanagar
11 Vietnam
12 Lan Xiang
13 Khmers
14 Siam
15 Burma
16 Aceh
17 Banten
18 Johor
19 Bijapur
20 Golkonda
21 Marathi (emergent)
22 Spain
23 VOC
24 Russia
There's place for a few more factions. Here and decide which of them are more important to you.

[UchihaMadara21]

Pazu the Kitsune - you are a great expert on the South-East Asia, but I'm not. But I think you are a bad specialist on the history of Europe. If the creators of Medieval2 acted like you, there would not have had any number of factions. In the original game are not represented Burgundy, Bohemia, Sweden, Navarre, Aragon, Croatia, Serbia, Moldova, Bulgaria,Wales, Ireland, Lithuania, Masovia, Vladimir Principality, Galician Principality, Cumans, Alans, Georgia, Cilicia, Armenia, Shirvan, Genoese Republic, Florence and so on and so forth. They also played an important role in the history of Europe. If you create everything with historical accuracy, it is not enough and 100 factions. We take the most important and strong states.
1 Ming
2 Qing
3 Mongol
4 Korea
5 Japan
6 Tibet
7 Zunghar
8 Kashgar
9 Moghul
10 Vijayanagar
11 Vietnam
12 Lan Xiang
13 Khmers
14 Siam
15 Burma
16 Aceh
17 Banten
18 Johor
19 Bijapur
20 Golkonda
21 Marathi (emergent)
22 Spain
23 VOC
24 Russia
There's place for a few more factions. Here and decide which of them are more important to you.

That seems a good faction list to me, the only mistake is that the khmers didn't existed anymore at the 1600's; their region was ruled by the Ayutthaya Kingdom, and Siam is a region, not a faction, so the correct list is:

1 Ming
2 Qing
3 Mongol
4 Korea
5 Japan
6 Tibet
7 Zunghar
8 Kashgar
9 Moghul
10 Vijayanagar
11 Vietnam
12 Lan Xiang
13 Burma
14 Aceh
15 Banten
16 Johor
17 Bijapur
18 Golkonda
19 Marathi (emergent)
20 Spain
21 VOC
22 Russia
23 Ayutthaya Kingdom

BTW...what's VOC?

[Pazu the Kitsune]

VOC = Dutch East India Company.....

During this timeframe the independence of the Khmer Kingdom of Oudong was 'on and off', id say best to leave Khmers with their own faction, although make them weaker....

'Vietnam' should be 2 factions, Nguyen Lords and Trinh Lords, because in fact it was divided between north and south at this point and in fact there was a great war between the two (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%B...%E1%BB%85n_War)

Ironically this war started in 1627 so maybe the two should start off at war.

'Burma' should be renamed Kingdom of Toungoo to represent the 'Burmese' (Bamar) Kingdom of Burma.....there were other non Bamar Kingdoms in Burma at the time, if you really want to you could include the Kingdom of Arakan which was a Rakhine kingdom in the western part of the country, they ruled parts of Bangladesh at different times and had close relations with the Kingdom of Kandy in Sri Lanka (i believe their ruling families were related by blood).

Portugal was still a power at this time, controlling Malacca and Macau....you can consider including them.

Other than that the only factions you may wanna consider including would be Brunei in Borneo (which was very strong), Banjar in southern Borneo (also strong at this time, although not as much), and possibly 'Sulu-Maguindanao' if youre going to include that part of the Philippines....

If youre looking for more factions outside of SE Asia i would say the Kingdom of Kandy in Sri Lanka or the Shun faction of China which emerged as a Han chinese peasant rebellion during the collapse of the Ming dynasty, they ruled very briefly before being replaced by the Manchurian Qing Dynasty.....also if you really want to you could include the Kingdom of Tungning, which was a faction in Formosa (Taiwan) formed by Ming loyalists led by Koxinga after the Dynasty's collapse, the siege of the Dutch controlled Fort Zeelandia is rather well known and very interesting....

And yes, i still intend to help this mod out in what ways i can