Italy Election Day

[alhoon]

Berlusconi's return to politics and biting a large chunk of the electorate will mean that those two will have to make a coalition. Then Berlusconi will be honorable (ahem, OK, not really honorable) opposition and bombard every measure they take rising even more in popularity.

For Italy, it's not that bad that Berlusconi threatens the center, because it forces them to work with the left. So there will be measures and cuts and all, but with some semblance of justice and while (obviously) the poor will suffer more than the rich, they will have a bit of protetion.

And then, Berlusconi's opponents will realize that you don't poke a lion like Berlusconi out of sleep with convictions for tax fraud etc. They probably learned their lesson that unless you want to be spanked, you don't go after billionaire media moguls. You just sit there and take it silently because you can't do anything about it, except dig your own grave.

[RNV]

News: M5S is quoted 20%!!!!!!..... Probably it's the effect of the coming out of Basil II......


Side Note (mainly for Basil II...):

Grillo has in progarm a Referendum about €.....It's the first time I'm feeling the need to vote....

Even If i'll vote FARE per fermare il declino I think he will get more closer to 25% than 20%... also referendum on euro its needed!

[Basil II the B.S]

What I don't get is why people would vote Berlusconi or Grillo. Both will be the downfall of Italy. Berlusconi for all the reasons we know, and Grillo because he seems authoritarian in nature (just look at how he treats dissent in his "movement") and hasn't got the slightest clue as to what Italy as a country needs. Even if you view the political caste as utterly and irrevocably corrupt, why vote for the biggest of all the many evils? Are the Italians suicidal? I haven't been able to figure that out. None of my colleagues would vote Berlusconi, but quite a few have supported Cinque Stelle. They couldn't explain really why, except that he's "different". Now, I know of the legacy that Bersani has, and I have no love lost on Monti at all. Still, the only real future Italy has is with both of them in a coalition government. If that doesn't happen, I am out of here for the sake of my children.

We are fed up. Simple as that.All the major parties need to gtfo. They messed up the country big time and yet they are the most paid politicians in Europe. They refuse to cut their salaries for any reason. In November they voted against a proposal to cut their salaries and use the money to create jobs for young people. The vote was obviously secret and in the middle of the night. I see that as a betrayal.

I take it that you are left leaning, but Bersani has really nothing good to offer at all. Renzi was an actually good candidate, but Bersani is not. We are not in Germany or somewhere else. Voting him is like voting Die Linke. No thanks. If you look at his program, he doesn't even have an economic growth plan.
In ''work'' all he says is ''protecting public worker's rights, pensioners and add pink quotas''. That's a pile of . He protects the interests of his core electorate and nothing else. Youth unemployment? Who cares...Solve any other major economic problem? Nah...
I can't vote for that and I can't see how anyone who's not blinded by ideology would.

And yea, I vote Grillo because I want the country to collapse. He's not going to solve anything, he'll just speed up the process. After that, I'm out of here.

[Diocle]

We are fed up. Simple as that.All the major parties need to gtfo. They messed up the country big time and yet they are the most paid politicians in Europe. They refuse to cut their salaries for any reason. In November they voted against a proposal to cut their salaries and use the money to create jobs for young people. The vote was obviously secret and in the middle of the night. I see that as a betrayal.

I take it that you are left leaning, but Bersani has really nothing good to offer at all. Renzi was an actually good candidate, but Bersani is not. We are not in Germany or somewhere else. Voting him is like voting Die Linke. No thanks. If you look at his program, he doesn't even have an economic growth plan.
In ''work'' all he says is ''protecting public worker's rights, pensioners and add pink quotas''. That's a pile of . He protects the interests of his core electorate and nothing else. Youth unemployment? Who cares...Solve any other major economic problem? Nah...
I can't vote for that and I can't see how anyone who's not blinded by ideology would.

And yea, I vote Grillo because I want the country to collapse. He's not going to solve anything, he'll just speed up the process. After that, I'm out of here.

Last news, attention Basil:
Bersani the Leader of PD, has just said that in the new Parlaiment it will be necessary to make a bit of 'Scouting'* in the parliamentary group of Grillo.


*'Scouting': Today in Italian politician language, it has the meaning of 'subtracting', or 'stealing' some parliamentary deputies to other political groups, offering them some gift.......

Side note: FARE of Giannino is quoted at the 4% in constant growth (even if Giannino proclaimed falsely of having two degrees!), it could be quite dangerous for the Regional Elections in Lombardy and for the composition of the Senate.

Here a video of Grillo from Teramo, the man is fantastic! "Piove!...Governo Tecnico!!!"

[Basil II the B.S]

who cares...

[Diocle]

who cares...

Chissenefrega? Yes and no...because if Bersani steals the number of deputies he needs to have the majority in the Senate...He will build the PD Governement and....nothing will happen....

[Basil II the B.S]

Yea, again, who cares.. He's going to win anyways, then his government will collapse within two years as always. A couple of more years wasted nothing else.

And Grillo is a retard.

[eisenkopf]

We are fed up. Simple as that.All the major parties need to gtfo. They messed up the country big time and yet they are the most paid politicians in Europe. They refuse to cut their salaries for any reason. In November they voted against a proposal to cut their salaries and use the money to create jobs for young people. The vote was obviously secret and in the middle of the night. I see that as a betrayal.

I take it that you are left leaning, but Bersani has really nothing good to offer at all. Renzi was an actually good candidate, but Bersani is not. We are not in Germany or somewhere else. Voting him is like voting Die Linke. No thanks. If you look at his program, he doesn't even have an economic growth plan.
In ''work'' all he says is ''protecting public worker's rights, pensioners and add pink quotas''. That's a pile of . He protects the interests of his core electorate and nothing else. Youth unemployment? Who cares...Solve any other major economic problem? Nah...
I can't vote for that and I can't see how anyone who's not blinded by ideology would.

And yea, I vote Grillo because I want the country to collapse. He's not going to solve anything, he'll just speed up the process. After that, I'm out of here.

Well, I haven't been following the whole election campaign very closely, because being a foreigner, I am not eligible to vote. From what I have gathered, Bersani is a lot less radical than the German Die Linke. His plans look more like social democratic ones to me, so he would resemble rather the SPD, making him electable from my point of view. I wouldn't consider myself extremely left-leaning - if you look at my policital profile, you'll see that I value liberties and freedoms at least as much as social responsibility and solidarity. And that's what Italy needs, in my humble opinion: Policies that cut down the state, regulations, organized crime and corruption (stimulus for growth), while balancing it with protecting the economically weak and poor. Because I am shocked to see how little the Italian state does for those - I mean, come on, I pay s of taxes, but there is not social security for me? If I become unemployed, I can barely pay the rent from my meager allowance, nvm that I earned a lot and contributed a lot to social security. If you don't have a family to support you (and obviously, we don't), or have your own house, you're ed. Unfortunately, there is no liberal party in Italy worth speaking of, so I think that Bersani/Monti is what comes closest.

[Basil II the B.S]

Well, I haven't been following the whole election campaign very closely, because being a foreigner, I am not eligible to vote. From what I have gathered, Bersani is a lot less radical than the German Die Linke. His plans look more like social democratic ones to me, so he would resemble rather the SPD, making him electable from my point of view. I wouldn't consider myself extremely left-leaning - if you look at my policital profile, you'll see that I value liberties and freedoms at least as much as social responsibility and solidarity. And that's what Italy needs, in my humble opinion: Policies that cut down the state, regulations, organized crime and corruption (stimulus for growth), while balancing it with protecting the economically weak and poor. Because I am shocked to see how little the Italian state does for those - I mean, come on, I pay s of taxes, but there is not social security for me? If I become unemployed, I can barely pay the rent from my meager allowance, nvm that I earned a lot and contributed a lot to social security. If you don't have a family to support you (and obviously, we don't), or have your own house, you're ed. Unfortunately, there is no liberal party in Italy worth speaking of, so I think that Bersani/Monti is what comes closest.

This is what my microeconomics uni professor sent me to explain where candidates stand on economics issues.
Side note, he voted for Renzi in the primaries and despite being member of PD he will vote Monti and refuses to vote Bersani. He even said he'd rather vote Giannino than him. Let's not allow ourselves to get confused by names. Bersani is someone that grew up in the ranks of the Communist Party of Italy. Then they changed name and became the current PD when the Soviet Union collapsed. I'm not fooled.


I supported Monti too during his first term, but he was a massive disappointment and now he sided with the Vatican. No thanks.

[eisenkopf]

This is what my microeconomics uni professor sent me to explain where candidates stand on economics issues.
Side note, he voted for Renzi in the primaries and despite being member of PD he will vote Monti and refuses to vote Bersani. He even said he'd rather vote Giannino than him. Let's not allow ourselves to get confused by names. Bersani is someone that grew up in the ranks of the Communist Party of Italy. Then they changed name and became the current PD when the Soviet Union collapsed. I'm not fooled.


I supported Monti too during his first term, but he was a massive disappointment and now he sided with the Vatican. No thanks.

I think it's a bit unfair to judge him by his membership in the Communist Party more than 20 years ago. In the evolving Italian party landscape, he seems to have move towards the center more and more. Plus, the PD is very diverse, so it would be difficult for him to act as a Communist Trojan Horse, wouldn't it? If his economic program really is as vague as you say, it would be better to judge him by his political performance since having an office. There, to me it seems he was doing at least okay. As for Monti: Well, his siding with the Vatican was bad, but it seems othewise he would be unpalatable to centrists, no? A tactical move, it seems. And tactical moves are part of the even the most ethically untarnished politics.

[Diocle]

It's not a matter of Communism, it's a matter of Unions. The Unions (CGIL and CISL and UIL) maintain the PD, so the policy of Bersani will be always the same statalist policy.

There is (was) a liberal party in Italy it's called Partito Radicale, but they are out of the games, no Unions no money!

[King Gambrinus]

Yea, again, who cares.. He's going to win anyways, then his government will collapse within two years as always. A couple of more years wasted nothing else.

And Grillo is a retard.

I fear Bersani will not win, despite attracting a lot of the intellectually adept's vote. Belursconi has just promised money to voters in swing regions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21521877) and seems to be gathering dangerous momentum. The corrupt elite in Italy will vote for Belursconi because of lower taxes and a healthy bed of corruption that comes with the Belursconi ticket for them to lie in, and the masses may vote for him for his populist drivel promising them jobs and money without any basis for such claims.

Grillo has shot himself in the foot. He had some great ideas, some interesting plans and has found the key problems in Italian society than need to be addressed. If he had played it safe and not pissed off so many people he'd be in the lead right now.

[Basil II the B.S]

I think it's a bit unfair to judge him by his membership in the Communist Party more than 20 years ago. In the evolving Italian party landscape, he seems to have move towards the center more and more.

You must have missed the part where the Communist Party changed name to Democratic Party (after the Soviet Union collapse). A name change after that catastrophe is hardly enough to convince me of their stance. But that's not the main point anyways. His stance isn't really social democratic, for once Diocle is right, it's unionism of the marxist species. That's why he sided with Vendola another former die hard communist (who's background is even further to the left than Bersani).

Plus, the PD is very diverse, so it would be difficult for him to act as a Communist Trojan Horse, wouldn't it?

Yea, too bad that the moderate wing (Renzi) has been marginalised. It's a matter of time anyways. Older electors stick to Bersani, youngers side with Renzi.

If his economic program really is as vague as you say, it would be better to judge him by his political performance since having an office. There, to me it seems he was doing at least okay. As for Monti: Well, his siding with the Vatican was bad, but it seems othewise he would be unpalatable to centrists, no? A tactical move, it seems. And tactical moves are part of the even the most ethically untarnished politics.

True but it doesn't change that his term was fairly terrible. At the end of his first year I was already massively disappointed by his ''taxes, taxes, taxes'', but I thought he had been given too few time and I supposed he would have done better in the second. He did not. More taxes, recently used to bail out banks. I'm not voting for endless recession.

I fear Bersani will not win, despite attracting a lot of the intellectually adept's vote. Belursconi has just promised money to voters in swing regions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21521877) and seems to be gathering dangerous momentum. The corrupt elite in Italy will vote for Belursconi because of lower taxes and a healthy bed of corruption that comes with the Belursconi ticket for them to lie in, and the masses may vote for him for his populist drivel promising them jobs and money without any basis for such claims.

Grillo has shot himself in the foot. He had some great ideas, some interesting plans and has found the key problems in Italian society than need to be addressed. If he had played it safe and not pissed off so many people he'd be in the lead right now.

If Berlusconi manages to win, then Bersani and Monti can blame only themselves. I don't see it happening, but who knows. His comeback in 1 month has been massive.

[King Gambrinus]

You must have missed the part where the Communist Party changed name to Democratic Party (after the Soviet Union collapse). A name change after that catastrophe is hardly enough to convince me of their stance. But that's not the main point anyways. His stance isn't really social democratic, for once Diocle is right, it's unionism of the marxist species. That's why he sided with Vendola another former die hard communist (who's background is even further to the left than Bersani).

He was a eurocommunist anyway Basil. Not all Marxists are evil Stalinists.

[Condottiere 40K]

Corruption is ever present in one form or another; I think countries such as Italy decline not only when they let it get out of hand, but actually accept it. You'd think the lessons of seventeen hundred years ago would be engraved on their collective memories.

[Basil II the B.S]

He was a eurocommunist anyway Basil. Not all Marxists are evil Stalinists.

PCI would have had Italy join the Soviet Union actually. And even though I'm well aware he's not a Stalinist, we are still far from an acceptable level. The German SPD abandoned Marxism over a century ago. Our center left never officially did, with the notable exception of Renzi.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

This guy? He made Italy look like a laughing joke!

[Logios]

Maybe some of you guys could explain what the deal is with the former leader of the Danish Nationalist party, Pia Kjærsgaard being described as an Italian pensioner by one of the Italian parties.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyway, I am probably not skilled enough in reverse-reverse-reverse psychology to convince you guys not to vote for Berlusconi, particularily when the alternatives are this type of incompetents. I would just prefer not to be in the European Union with him having influence on it.

[Aper]

I'll attempt an explanation of both berlusconi and 5 star success.

IMO, it has to do with a deep distrust and contempt toward politicians and the italian ruling class in general.

Most of the common people seems to think "the more powerful you are, the more corrupt you are". So it's not surprising they don't care about the trials of berlusconi, they just are in the natural order of things in their opinion, and at least berlusconi is very... "human" compared to the average politician, he seems one of the people. Moreover, he's the only one who will actually relieve a bit of fiscal pressure from people by removing some taxes - and leave a mess to his successor, but nobody cares, who will live will see they think - or tolerating evasion.

This kind of cynism is the reaction of most italian people, that are very passive in everything regarding civic duties including politics, to the endless stream of scandals following "mani pulite" in 1992, when prosecutors crushed part of the bribe system that was behind the first republic (anyway the second republic is no different, just worse).

5 star is another kind of reaction, it's a populist movement whose goal is the pacific destruction of the corrupt political system, replacing it with politics as a limited service provided by common citizens as a part of their civic duties.

Hope I've been clear despite my faulty english.

EDIT:

Maybe some of you guys could explain what the deal is with the former leader of the Danish Nationalist party, Pia Kjærsgaard being described as an Italian pensioner by one of the Italian parties.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyway, I am probably not skilled enough in reverse-reverse-reverse psychology to convince you guys not to vote for Berlusconi, particularily when the alternatives are this type of incompetents. I would just prefer not to be in the European Union with him having influence on it.

That's disturbing, that party seemed one of the most onest and decent... Thank you for uncovering this.

EDIT2: and before some witty northerner comes out with a comptemptuous comment about southerner's corruption, IMO this fenomenon comes from the fact that in the first republic Italy was permanently on the brink of a civil war, because of a very strong, KGB financed communist party; that spurred CIA support to christian democrats and fascists as a reaction. Most of the time this fierce cold (sometimes hot) war was fought by the mean of bribes, to gain influence on the society, and the habit survived because the current politicians are almost all recycled members of the first republic old parties. berlusconi, for instance made his fortune thanks to the illegal or illegitimate aid of the socialists (that's kind of ironic) in the eighties.

[Basil II the B.S]

Maybe some of you guys could explain what the deal is with the former leader of the Danish Nationalist party, Pia Kjærsgaard being described as an Italian pensioner by one of the Italian parties.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyway, I am probably not skilled enough in reverse-reverse-reverse psychology to convince you guys not to vote for Berlusconi, particularily when the alternatives are this type of incompetents. I would just prefer not to be in the European Union with him having influence on it.

Oh god, wtf.... and yea Ingroia is one of the main opposers of Berlusconi.