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Thread: Italy Election Day

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenkopf View Post
    That's why Grillo will be the un-doing of the Italian Republic, if he is allowed to play his role. His movement has a great nothingness as a program, it's just "against, against, against". After having pushed Italy over the edge, it will dissolve. Honestly, yesterday was the beginning of a long European decline. European nation states will become less and less important globally. And Europe as a whole cannot prosper without Italy. And barely 50% of the Italian electorate chose to say "Basta!" to Berlusconi (affluenza 75%, di cui 30% x Berlusconi). Any voter of M5S just wants to see the whole house come crushing down. What they don't get: They won't be watching from the sidelines. They will be buried in the rubble. Now my decision stands: I will leave Italy again at the nearest opportunity. That way, I will "only" choke from the dust that a crumbled Italy will cover the neighbors with.
    Go.
    We don't need people with this kind of mindset. With all their BIG problems, the M5S people are trying to bring some much needed change to this country, instead of screaming "WTF I'LL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY ASAP!!!!!!!" every time something goes wrong.

    Try to do something constructive. If you fail, try harder. If you lose your heart, don't get in the way of the people who are still trying, mind your own business and STFU, instead of throwing mud on your country and your people. Always IMO, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    If it's a duck, I call it a duck. Simple as that.
    Italy could use some real politicians, not a literal clown (what's the purpose of a fun party? Anarchy?) or some demagogues like Berlusconi or pretty much everyone on the left.


    Oh sweet, I have a stalker now.
    You just confirmed my words. You don't have any real understanding of italian politics, and I suppose you don't care that much: that's fine, but makes your posts on the matter futile. I don't mean to attack you, I'll not return on the matter.

    About the stalker part, it merely seems we like the same threads

    Basil, as Arm Rev already pointed out, Bersani and his party went a long way from communism, they look more like a centrist party now, and Grillo... the line between a madman and a visionary can be really thin sometimes... time will tell.
    Last edited by Gertrudius; February 26, 2013 at 04:35 PM. Reason: dp

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    People who say Grillo does not have a program are talking out of their arses. He's already said he'd cut the ridiculous defence budget, the red tape, a whole bunch of useless politicians, apparatchiks etc... and fund education and Green industry, as well as tax cuts for the middle classes. Obviously getting rid of scum like Belursconi is his main priority though.

    Isn't this what most of you cry out for, or are you still living in flat-tax dream-world without any governments and where poor people don't exist/aren't your concern?
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Revolutionary View Post
    Do you think Grillo's score will go up if he effectively sends Italy back to the polls? Pretty clever of him to already declare he will not enter a coalition.

    Yes, they have a lot of potential.The problem is that in the current election law for the senate you need to do really well in Veneto, Lombardy and Campania.Veneto and Lombardy are strongholds of Berlusconi and LN, in Campania vote exchange is really a big deal so Grillo can't win there.Even if M5S gets up 10 %, they will hardly gain a majority in both houses (especially the Senate) and I don't see why PD and PDL will be in favour of changing an election law which could guarantee governability but would then condemn them to death (if Grillo really forms a goverment Berlusconi better run in a country without extradition) and hand the country to Grillo.
    Last edited by Caesar Germanico; February 26, 2013 at 05:31 AM.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by eisenkopf View Post
    That's why Grillo will be the un-doing of the Italian Republic, if he is allowed to play his role. His movement has a great nothingness as a program, it's just "against, against, against". After having pushed Italy over the edge, it will dissolve. Honestly, yesterday was the beginning of a long European decline. European nation states will become less and less important globally. And Europe as a whole cannot prosper without Italy. And barely 50% of the Italian electorate chose to say "Basta!" to Berlusconi (affluenza 75%, di cui 30% x Berlusconi). Any voter of M5S just wants to see the whole house come crushing down. What they don't get: They won't be watching from the sidelines. They will be buried in the rubble. Now my decision stands: I will leave Italy again at the nearest opportunity. That way, I will "only" choke from the dust that a crumbled Italy will cover the neighbors with.
    Well no. M5S are the only one political entity in Italy understanding the real situation. The real mood of the people. How things really go. They don't live in crystal castles away from reality like Berlusconi when he says "there is no crisis, restaurants are always full" or "i'll give you back the money you paid for IMU home tax" (when he knows he cannot) or Bersani with his own promises of employement based on mere fantasy or Monti now telling to reduce the taxes after a year passed to put them on. Coherency and decency. What PDL and PD don't have. It's the demonstration you can make very good politics with no money at all. Because they get no money. They give it back to the State as they did in the last regionals. Furthermore they want to reduce totally the number of parliamentarians, senators and reduce their privileges and salary. It's inadmissible that, while the 80% of population lives with less than 1000 euro per month (taxation higher than 45%) and cannot reach the end of the month because of taxes and life cost, those people not only get hundred thousands of euro and live in mansions, they don't pay the gas, they dont pay the food in the restaurants, they dont pay their phone calls, they dont pay the brandnew cars they get, they dont pay travels they do all over Italy and Europe for business or their vacations with the family and so on. What the average italian (with no future or bank savings and killed by the taxes) could say or think about the political caste, when he reads of parliamentarian who literary says in interviews "Reduce my salary?? i cannot live with less than 15.000 euro per month!!!! "?!?!?!?!?!? You ****ing kidding me!??!?! And those people not only receive funds, extra salary and bonuses every day, but also money back as "rimborso elettorale" after the results of the elections or as financing to their regime newspapers, an anti constitutional law wanted by Berlusconi years ago. The difference catches the eye, especially when you see M5S members in charge to gain just 2000 euro per month and not 100.000 and more euro like Berlusconi or any other politician, and going to work in bycicle or bus like common people. Because they are common people. Housewives, doctors, architects, clerks, students, professors, graduate and so on. They are not politicians for profession. They do politics as a service for the community, not like a divine right (see Berlusconi for example) This is also another reason why they are voted. Why M5S is voted. And will be always voted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Revolutionary View Post
    Do you think Grillo's score will go up if he effectively sends Italy back to the polls? Pretty clever of him to already declare he will not enter a coalition.
    Count that nearly twenty million of Italians didn't vote in last two days. People done with the old politics. People refusing to vote like a kind of protest or maybe for malcontent and resignation against the political class and political status quo. We are talking about italians who never voted before. For the things who never change in Italy. Whenever there will be new elections in next seven-eight (?) months or even less, those people i am sure will change their ideas and will vote for Grillo and Grillo knows this. They are a M5S potential electorate. Grillo hopes for new elections soon because those people work to his advantage in case of elections.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Just to make you all smile..
    In this election , in Italy ,the most voted party has been M5S which has been founded by Beppe Grillo.
    He's a comic, who since 30 years is criticizing the italian politic.
    He first tried 6-7 years ago.to change things from within the PD (who is the major party of the left wing).
    So one of the major politicians in that party, Fassino, speaks in this video (which is 4 years old) and says:
    "If Grillo wants to do things his was, he's free to do so. Only thing he has to do is to found his own party, and present himself at the elections and see how many votes he gets (with a sarcastic tone)"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYtLXILmyhI
    Well..he did that 2 years ago, and now in its first election M5S is the most voted party..
    This is what I call Epic fail..
    Last edited by invicta; February 26, 2013 at 06:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    The netherlands recently have proven that forming a government with these "protest"-parties always end badly (wilders and fortuyn). Although I can understand that you vote for grillo if you see how politicians are in italy. That berlusconi still gets so many votes is the real problem of italy.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Occhi Di Davide View Post
    Count that nearly twenty million of Italians didn't vote in last two days. People done with the old politics. People refusing to vote like a kind of protest or maybe for malcontent and resignation against the political class and political status quo. We are talking about italians who never voted before. For the things who never change in Italy. Whenever there will be new elections in next seven-eight (?) months or even less, those people i am sure will change their ideas and will vote for Grillo and Grillo knows this. They are a M5S potential electorate. Grillo hopes for new elections soon because those people work to his advantage in case of elections.
    Twenty?No, twelve millions didn't vote in the elections, eight of those never vote.The legislative session won't last the supposed five years, but I think PD and Berlusconi will cut a deal instead of new elections.

    New elections in 6 months will make M5S more powerful but not enough to form a goverment.I wish someone in PD would step up and offer a limited deal to Grillo: anticorruption/conflict of interest law and new election law to have new elections in 12/18 months.I think that would be appreciated by the center-left wing base and would assure their survival, but considering they might be "less worse" than Berlusconi but they still are part of the old political class wich protects/part of certain interests they won't do that.Also, Grillo might not even be interested in something like this and might be looking forward to completely win in 5 years.Too bad that Italy can't wait that long.
    Last edited by Caesar Germanico; February 26, 2013 at 06:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by eXistenZ View Post
    The netherlands recently have proven that forming a government with these "protest"-parties always end badly (wilders and fortuyn). Although I can understand that you vote for grillo if you see how politicians are in italy. That berlusconi still gets so many votes is the real problem of italy.
    Problem in Italy, is that PD (the major opposition to Berlusconi's party) is just the other face of the same coin of Berlusconi's party.
    Many outside or inside Italy, do not know that Berlusconi, having TV licenses couldn't make politic in reason of a law. Since '93 the politicians (including the ones of the left wing) allowed him to evade such law.
    In 2003, one of the major politicians in the left wing, claimed in the parliament how they promised to Berlusconi to not touch his TV stations (and Berlusconi obtained the TV frequencies ,illegally..).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHPRel7mpUM

    So you can vote the left wing, but the it's like voting Berlusconi.
    I understand people form outside can see such vote to the M5S as a vote of protest, but it's not like that.
    It's that truly people are looking for alternatives, because every other existing party is just the same and they all have underlying deals between them.
    So there's no a real opposition.
    Last edited by invicta; February 26, 2013 at 06:17 AM.
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  9. #169
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day


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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by eXistenZ View Post
    The netherlands recently have proven that forming a government with these "protest"-parties always end badly (wilders and fortuyn). Although I can understand that you vote for grillo if you see how politicians are in italy. That berlusconi still gets so many votes is the real problem of italy.
    If Belursconi had won instead of Bersani then it would have been a success for M5S, as Belursconi would've taken the country to new levels of embarrassement and would not have lasted 6 months in office. Seriously though, if Belursconi gets near power again right now, it would be his definitive last term. For now, he'll continue to make promises and use his vast repetoire of corruption to present himself as an anti-establishment candidate, which could see his popularity soar the way Grillo did. Except Grillo's party isn't pure scum.

    Its as if some of his electorate completely forgot who put them in this mess in the first place...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Revolutionary View Post

    Its as if some of his electorate completely forgot who put them in this mess in the first place...


    What completely surprised me was the PD/Lega result in Lombardy, even with all the scandals the local PDL goverment suffered people still voted them.Our economic centre and most important region (1/6 of the population) has the same political awareness and can be easily maneuvered as much Alabama can in the US.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    If I were Italian I would have voted for Berlusconi. Well done to the Italian people for finally standing against austerity. The leader of the left should resign already. Failing to score a big victory against Berlusconi after all this mud (bunga-bunga) is sad to say the least.
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Revolutionary View Post
    People who say Grillo does not have a program are talking out of their arses. He's already said he'd cut the ridiculous defence budget, the red tape, a whole bunch of useless politicians, apparatchiks etc... and fund education and Green industry, as well as tax cuts for the middle classes. Obviously getting rid of scum like Belursconi is his main priority though.
    Funding green energy might be a good option from an environmental perspective, but it is a not a very good move economically speaking. Apart from the obvious drawback that their subsidising requires taxes, it additionally distorts the energy market because solar very often drives prices down during peak loads, which used to be peak prices, and wind stochastically has the same effect on price profiles during entire days, and thus can make operating the conventional thermal powerplants not viable as well as investing into new ones a very unattractive prospect due to the uncertainty concerning the future economic and legal framework. On the other hand, the capacity of these plants is needed and will be need because the demand for electricity grows, which means that their owners will have to be remunerated through some scheme, which means that capacity markets come into existence besides the energy market, which means even more taxes are required to fund these schemes or higher costs for the end consumers. Unless Italian expenditure is characterised by a huge military budget, I don't see how funding research, which pays back in the long term, green energy, which increases the cost of electricity, and implementing tax cuts can all be combined in a fiscally responsible manner.


    On topic. Why did Monti fare so bad?
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    Monti was attacked heavily by all sides, pratically he was used as a scapegoat.I don't like him (and I don't really like the Italian Catholic centre) but I find that utterly stupid; much needed reform couldn't be done with the parties not having interest in doing them, the crisis getting worse was beyond him and economic maeasures like IMU were already decided.

    @Manuel

    Berlusconi gave his support to Monti for 9 months, all this talk against austerity is political propaganda he has been doing just in the last months.All empty talk, Berlusconi is a demagogue and a populist he doesn't have anything to do with economic measures against austerity.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    @Manuel

    Berlusconi gave his support to Monti for 9 months, all this talk against austerity is political propaganda he has been doing just in the last months.All empty talk, Berlusconi is a demagogue and a populist he doesn't have anything to do with economic measures against austerity.
    Doesn't seem like he had much of a choice. Germany and France practically enforced Monti to Italy, just like they enforced Papademos to Greece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    Go.
    We don't need people with this kind of mindset. With all their BIG problems, the M5S people are trying to bring some much needed change to this country, instead of screaming "WTF I'LL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY ASAP!!!!!!!" every time something goes wrong.

    Try to do something constructive. If you fail, try harder. If you lose your heart, don't get in the way of the people who are still trying, mind your own business and STFU, instead of throwing mud on your country and your people. Always IMO, of course.
    I sense a lot of butthurt. STFU? That seems a common response within M5S towards dissenting voices. Oh, and please go read my signature. It was meant for people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Germanico View Post
    What completely surprised me was the PD/Lega result in Lombardy, even with all the scandals the local PDL goverment suffered people still voted them.Our economic centre and most important region (1/6 of the population) has the same political awareness and can be easily maneuvered as much Alabama can in the US.
    In my commune, the Lega has lost half of their votes (though still way too strong for my taste, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Occhi Di Davide View Post
    Well no. M5S are the only one political entity in Italy understanding the real situation. The real mood of the people. How things really go. They don't live in crystal castles away from reality like Berlusconi when he says "there is no crisis, restaurants are always full" or "i'll give you back the money you paid for IMU home tax" (when he knows he cannot) or Bersani with his own promises of employement based on mere fantasy or Monti now telling to reduce the taxes after a year passed to put them on. Coherency and decency. What PDL and PD don't have. It's the demonstration you can make very good politics with no money at all. Because they get no money. They give it back to the State as they did in the last regionals. Furthermore they want to reduce totally the number of parliamentarians, senators and reduce their privileges and salary. It's inadmissible that, while the 80% of population lives with less than 1000 euro per month (taxation higher than 45%) and cannot reach the end of the month because of taxes and life cost, those people not only get hundred thousands of euro and live in mansions, they don't pay the gas, they dont pay the food in the restaurants, they dont pay their phone calls, they dont pay the brandnew cars they get, they dont pay travels they do all over Italy and Europe for business or their vacations with the family and so on. What the average italian (with no future or bank savings and killed by the taxes) could say or think about the political caste, when he reads of parliamentarian who literary says in interviews "Reduce my salary?? i cannot live with less than 15.000 euro per month!!!! "?!?!?!?!?!? You ****ing kidding me!??!?! And those people not only receive funds, extra salary and bonuses every day, but also money back as "rimborso elettorale" after the results of the elections or as financing to their regime newspapers, an anti constitutional law wanted by Berlusconi years ago. The difference catches the eye, especially when you see M5S members in charge to gain just 2000 euro per month and not 100.000 and more euro like Berlusconi or any other politician, and going to work in bycicle or bus like common people. Because they are common people. Housewives, doctors, architects, clerks, students, professors, graduate and so on. They are not politicians for profession. They do politics as a service for the community, not like a divine right (see Berlusconi for example) This is also another reason why they are voted. Why M5S is voted. And will be always voted.



    Count that nearly twenty million of Italians didn't vote in last two days. People done with the old politics. People refusing to vote like a kind of protest or maybe for malcontent and resignation against the political class and political status quo. We are talking about italians who never voted before. For the things who never change in Italy. Whenever there will be new elections in next seven-eight (?) months or even less, those people i am sure will change their ideas and will vote for Grillo and Grillo knows this. They are a M5S potential electorate. Grillo hopes for new elections soon because those people work to his advantage in case of elections.
    I'm sorry, but I think your post just proves my point. M5S is against a lot of things, but hasn't gotten an idea where to go. Sure, the prerogatives of Italian politicians are distasteful and need to be curtailed. But that's not the most pressing problem Italy has.
    Last edited by eisenkopf; February 26, 2013 at 07:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    Doesn't seem like he had much of a choice. Germany and France practically enforced Monti to Italy, just like they enforced Papademos to Greece.

    Not really.Berlusconi had the option of the elections last year, he made the right call considering his political interest but if he really was such an enemy of austerity and Germany he knew the elections was the best choice even at the cost of handing over the country to PD.

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    Doesn't seem like he had much of a choice. Germany and France practically enforced Monti to Italy, just like they enforced Papademos to Greece.
    He could have sent Italy back to the polls, which is what any honourable person would do instead of supporting the EU's stooge Monti. But Belursconi realised he'd lose support. Putting personal ambition infront of national interest seems to be his forte.

    I'm disappointed in you, Manuel. Despite your anti-leftist nationalist politics, I thought you'd realise Belursconi represents the kind of person that you rightly called "scum" in the GD thread. Just like ND and Papandreou, he is nothing more than a corrupt liar who has tax-payer funded underage prostitutes and very little substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Funding green energy might be a good option from an environmental perspective, but it is a not a very good move economically speaking. Apart from the obvious drawback that their subsidising requires taxes, it additionally distorts the energy market because solar very often drives prices down during peak loads, which used to be peak prices, and wind stochastically has the same effect on price profiles during entire days, and thus can make operating the conventional thermal powerplants not viable as well as investing into new ones a very unattractive prospect due to the uncertainty concerning the future economic and legal framework. On the other hand, the capacity of these plants is needed and will be need because the demand for electricity grows, which means that their owners will have to be remunerated through some scheme, which means that capacity markets come into existence besides the energy market, which means even more taxes are required to fund these schemes or higher costs for the end consumers. Unless Italian expenditure is characterised by a huge military budget, I don't see how funding research, which pays back in the long term, green energy, which increases the cost of electricity, and implementing tax cuts can all be combined in a fiscally responsible manner.
    I'm sorry, but while it may hurt European energy markets in the short term, in the long term we've got to stop relying on Russian energy resources and foreign investors and start developping our own energy. You may not believe in climate change, but the green energy program would make Europe self-sufficient for once in its life. It would also boost the construction program, creating jobs.

    And I would trust Grillo with my finances more than Belursconi or Bersani.


    On topic. Why did Monti fare so bad?
    Because he was leading a pro-EU, pro-austerity, pro-catholic centre party. It's like committing political hara kiri southern Europe style.

    He didn't have any votes in the first place anyhow. He should never have stood for election, it just makes the EU look like complete and utter idiots.
    Last edited by King Gambrinus; February 26, 2013 at 08:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Armchair Revolutionary View Post
    He could have sent Italy back to the polls, which is what any honourable person would do instead of supporting the EU's stooge Monti. But Belursconi realised he'd lose support. Putting personal ambition infront of national interest seems to be his forte.

    I'm disappointed in you, Manuel. Despite your anti-leftist nationalist politics, I thought you'd realise Belursconi represents the kind of person that you rightly called "scum" in the GD thread. Just like ND and Papandreou, he is nothing more than a corrupt liar who has tax-payer funded underage prostitutes and very little substance.
    It's not so much about Berlusconi but about giving a message to Europe that strict austerity can't work. And who's better than Italy to give this message? States like Greece, Portugal and Ireland are petty European satellites. Italy is one of the most powerful economies on earth. Europe should follow the American example and stop this austerity madness.
    Under the patronage of Emperor Maximinus Thrax
    "Steps to be taken in case Russia should be forced out of war considered. Various movements [of ] troops to and from different fronts necessary to meeting possible contingencies discussed. Conference also weighed political, economic, and moral effect both upon Central and Allied powers under most unfavorable aspect from Allied point of view. General conclusions reached were necessity for adoption of purely defensive attitude on all secondary fronts and withdrawing surplus troops for duty on western front. By thus strengthening western front [those attending] believed Allies could hold until American forces arrive in numbers sufficient to gain ascendancy."
    ~General Pershing, report to Washington, 26 July 1917

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    Default Re: Italy Election Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Occhi Di Davide View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Forza il Cavalieri, Bunga Bunga ahora e para siempre

    What is really astonishing is that 25% of the electorate voted for a Comedian ... which puts Italy in the same group as Brazilians who voted for Comedian Tiririca as a "protest vote" until the guy switched to PT and received all the perks due to a member of a Parliamentary commission. Jokes on them, Italy is on the way to Third World realities pretty fast.
    So many things go wrong in life that a sense of humor, even of the macabre type, should have been standard issue.

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