Sai rodida Guthans!
The Macedonian State: Origins, Institutions, and History by N.G.L. Hammond. He mentions that Pieria was once inhabited by Thracians who were expelled at the first stage of Macedonian expansion to the East and Northeast. Why do you consider it unlikely? The Macedonian expansion and the Greek colonies in the coasts of Macedonia and Thrace were a later addition. Until then, the local inhabitants were Thracians.
On the other hand the Alfold area (Eastern Hungary) was mostly dominated by a large variety of tribes during Early Antiquity, many of them of Iranian stock (Mezocsat culture, Iazyges), as well as Thraco-Dacians or Celts.
Btw, when you refer to the Polish scholars article you are not referring to this:
Hopefully you not try to claim that Dacians inhabitant all these areas or that they caused the Tumulus-Urnfield expansion toward the South and East!!??
The quote reads as follows: “For example, the bearers of the Middle
European Hiigelgraber or tumulus culture exerted towards southern
Pannonia a pressure which played an outstanding role in the formation
of the Dubovac-Zuto Brdo group and in the connexions it had with
the west Pannonian incrusted ware. Similarly the Noa-Sabatinovka
group moving westwards from the east towards the Carpathian region
exerted pressure in the Lower Danubian area.
The Cambridge Ancient History III(1) p.584
You also ‘missed’ quoting this part:
“While this process was going on, it is understandable that a considerable regrouping and assimilation of various groups took place, accompanied by geographical movement. In the end it led to the formation of large ethnic entities such as Thracians, Daco-Mysians and Illyrians (…)” The Cambridge Ancient History III(1) p.584
Then we have this:
Nonetheless, from what I get you are basically saying the entire Balkans peninsula was populated by Dacians or that they were the only ones able to migrate???. And that is even more curious seeing that your own source says that these tribes migrated along the Adriatic coast, which kind of speaks against an origin from Dacia, because an trailing around Adriatic coast would be unnecessary.
The danger is even more in case of armatures lacking even the most basic knowledge and which contradict reputable historians (Gibmutas, authors of Cambridge History) on basis of nothing but their ‘guts’.
Furthermore, better researchers on this subject conclude that the nuclei of the Celtic-Italic, Illyrian, Venetic, Phrygian and Armenian linguistic groups are to be looked for within the limits of the central European Bronze Age (cf. Gimbutas, p.339, well as in Cambridge III (1), p.849)
Any trained (and good intentioned) historian knows that very well that half-thought, outlandish and hair-pulled theories are dangerous, and that is way caution is one of historian’s best pals.
“At that time some of his victorious army, seeing that the subdued provinces were rich and fruitful, deserted their companies and of their own accord remained in various parts of Asia. (48) From their name or race Pompeius Trogus says the stock of the Parthians had its origin. Hence even to-day in the Scythian tongue they are called Parthi, that is, Deserters.”
Last edited by mircea; December 19, 2012 at 02:35 AM.
Mixing the Getae and the Dacians with Thracians comes from protochronism and the attempt to make the unrelated southerners more important to the cultures north of the Danube than what they really were.
For instance... Could the people around the Latin region have a genetic conection with Thrace...?
The answer to that is yes... South and central Italy do have the same J2a as the Thracians... We have no way of knowing how J2a got there with DNA alone but it is there. But could you connect this to Romanians or to the Getae and the Dacians...!? No... those populations were more like "Scytho-Northern" with a Germanic element dominated by Haplogroup I. (sure go ahead and laugh... but then I'll point to Trajan's Column and Adamclissi which do display "Germanics"...) Like I said... Getae = Goths
You can't fix stupid with more stupid... Romania in antiquity was not considered to be Latin and there's no such thing as a Thraco-Dacian expansion. In fact, there's no such thing as Thraco-Dacian... It's a made up concept.
We can trace the retardation of this concept to Herodotus... Either he was making stuff up or he had a political motive to link the Getae to Hellenism through Thracian...
Last edited by Getwulf; December 19, 2012 at 07:19 AM.
Sai rodida Guthans!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by Tiberios; December 20, 2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Off topic part removed.
[/QUOTE]Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Ria, Ria Khazaria and Bolga Pizdaria!!!!
As for Romania... Romania is a failure..., dumbest, poorest most corrupt EU member there is... Do you wonder why that is...? It's because of the Huns and the Byzantines... An unholy alliance of errr.... "Thracians" who pretend to be Latin...! Having to tell people that I'm Romanian really does make me feel ashamed. It's embarassing...
Nothing really but arrow shooters from the steppes without a culture of their own and greedy corrupt Byzantine Greeks... Most of these fake "Greeks" were orientals with semitic DNA but ironically also very racist and anti-semitic... You know... all this brown on brown hatred!
Enjoy your poverty Mircea!
Thracians suck and they were the most loser people out there...! More importantly they never won a war or lived in Romania!
AND to finally put an end to this crap...
All of these notions come from this video...
Unfortunately it's in Romanian so you won't be able to laugh at it but at least you can look at some fake maps...
At the beginning of the video it is announced that we're all genetically related to Bulgarians and Greeks and therefore Thracians...! This is false... Neither Greeks nor Romanians are Thracians...
Then they go on to tell how Italics from 5000-3000 B.C. are in fact Thracians although the northern Italians are not genetically related and how the Romans are descended from Aeneas of Troy... who founded Rome...
Last edited by Tiberios; December 20, 2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Off topic part removed.
Sai rodida Guthans!
You're woefully wrong, I'm not discussing/alluding to your intelligence level, simply because is not my business, nor I have the necessary expertise to give an accurate opinion on this matter.
On the other hand I have the right to express an opinion on your knowledge and comprehension of history, and unfortunately for you, I also have sufficient expertise to obliterate your awfully eccentric fairytale (politely speaking)
I think you'll be interested that I have found another "nail" for the "coffin" of the Dacian-Latin closeness:
Ovid, Tristia, Book V.XII:1-68 Poetry In Exile
"I myself have already un-learned Latin, I think, now I’ve learnt to speak Getic and Sarmatian."
Book Tristia, V.II:45-79 His Prayer to Augustus
"these barbarian tongues ignorant of the Latin language, this Greek speech submerged in the sounds of Getic"
The personal references, insinuations and general mudslinging ends now. Stay on topic everybody.
Under the Patronage of Gertrudius!
Firstly it was forceful, seeing the spread of Naue 2 type of swords, from Carpathians to Alps. Then a spiritual/religious one probably, seen the spread of cremation. My opinion is that a kind of internal struggle occured within that proto-Dacian civilization, probably based of an increase of population and apparition of a new religion or spiritual belief.
In the same time a change in warfare occured as well (see Robert Drews and others i dont have time to search to post now), which allowed the people here to prevail over armies of that era.
Due to these combination of factors smaller or bigger groups migrated in all directions, pushing others as well in their way.
Probably large campaigns coordinated by a central power took place too, see Tanausis king expedition.
This is another prove of the presence of a strong kingdom in the area
Another center of power was discovered east of that, in Carpathians
This one is of a smaller dimenssion but betetr protected by the geography of the place
Such settlements (especially the first one) can't be build without a significant population around, and without a powerful and organized kingdom. In fact it was the biggest settlement in the world at that time, i believe (sure, if you know others i will be glad to see)
Yes, them. You should read all the article, because they say at some point:
<<The not too great but nevertheless evident percentage of wares characteristic for the latter in the ceramic inventory of the Tyniec Group confirms, not so much the existence of an unspecified form of "contacts" but the physical presence of Dacians in the area of Krakow....>>
This show that those bracelets and armlets are indeed imports, meaning they come from Dacia, and was worn by Dacian nobles who arrived in today Poland. However, the more common ceramic with little value was made locally (meaning in Poland) by Dacians who lived there
<<pag. 62 - Chapter VIII. THE PERIOD OF TRANSITION FROM THE BRONZE AGE TO THE FIRST IRON AGE: THE HALLSTATT A PERIOD - (1200-1000 B.C.)
Culturally, economically and ethnically this period is perfectly continuous with the Late Bronze Age.
pag. 64 - More then fifty years ago Vasile Parvan wrote about "the Dacians at Troy" on the strenght of similar ceramic types found at Troy and in the Carpathian area; the only amendament we can make is to replace Dacians by Thracians, because the various groups of Thracian population had not separated out in the twelfth century.
Pressure from the west and south west, which began in north-eastern Yugoslavia, south-eastern Hungary and the south-western most part of Romania, gave rise to great migrations.......displaced the Dorians........caused the invasion of the "Sea People">>
Urnfielders had their origins right near the area were they "returned", and it seem you conveniently missed the expansion of Noua culture westward.
And no, i obviously dont say that Dacians solely inhabited the area you describe (Austria-Slovakia-Hungary-Romania). What i am saying is that groups of Dacians moved from their "core" area (what we know later as Dacia) and dominated or influenced local population in the places they reached.
The fields along Tisa river was a Dacian area however, same along lower Danube right and left to the river (Tisa-Danube areas, up to Danube Delta)
<<The Bronze Age collapse may be seen in the context of a technological history that saw the slow, comparatively continuous spread of iron-working technology in the region, beginning with precocious iron-working in what is now Bulgaria and Romania in the 13th and 12th centuries BC. Leonard R. Palmer suggested that iron, while inferior to bronze weapons, was in more plentiful supply and so allowed larger armies of iron users to overwhelm the smaller armies of bronze-using maryannu chariotry.>>
Sources mentioned are:
-See A. Stoia and the other essays in M.L. Stig Sřrensen and R. Thomas, eds., The Bronze Age—Iron Age Transition in Europe (Oxford) 1989, and T.H. Wertime and J.D. Muhly, The Coming of the Age of Iron (New Haven) 1980.
-Palmer, Leonard R (1962) Mycenaeans and Minoans: Aegean Prehistory in the Light of the Linear B Tablets. (New York, Alfred A. Knopf, 1962)
Cucuteni and Yamna culture for example coexisted and mixed for mileniums, without any problem, and just the climate changes and fall of agriculture lead to the change of lifestyle (and probably internal struggles for resources), wasnt any big invasions she imagined
I didnt found many, unfortunately (but i agree there are some). In the same time i am very sure that findings in western Europe of a town (with a center spread on 100 ha, with towers, trenches, walls, ceramic etc etc) older then pyramids or of a Bronze Age era settlement spread on 1772 ha and almost 6 km across from side to side would make huge news and discussions there. Yet because they are here they are barely know and little discussed.
Same the so called "danubian writing" or "old european writing". Gimbutas have a great merit she talk about this, but i didnt seen much interest, because that would shatter the old dogmatic views and of course will dethrone the "mighty Celts" and so on
However, regarding the Parthi, he said he took that from Trogus Pompeius, and as you can saw there is modern historians and archeological discoveries who mention Dacians (under the name of Goths in Jordanes book) at least as south as Troy. I see no reason to not believe they goes further in south and some warrior group reached later Persia.
Again, this have at least as much, but i think more basis then Goths moving from Scandza and wandering 2 mileniums until Jordanes
L.E. - i will reply you another time about Ovid and his Getic period
Last edited by diegis; December 21, 2012 at 03:45 AM.
Ovid, Tristia, Book V II, :45-79Book TV.II:45-79 His Prayer to Augustus
A distant suppliant, I address a distant god,
if it’s allowed for mortals to address Jupiter.
Imperial judge, through whom the security
of all the gods of the Roman people is assured,
O glory, O symbol of the country that prospers
through you, O hero equal to that world you rule –
so may you live on earth, and heaven long for you,
so may you pass at length, as promised, to the stars –
spare me, I beg of you, and reduce the lightning-bolt’s
effect a little! The punishment that’s left will be enough.
Indeed your anger is moderated, you grant me life,
I’m not deprived of a citizen’s name or rights,
my possessions have not been given to others,
I’m not called an ‘exul’ by the terms of your decree.
And I feared these things because I knew I’d earned them:
yet your anger is lighter than my offence.
You ordered me to view Pontus’ fields as a ‘relegatus’,
cutting the Scythian waves in a fleeing vessel.
As commanded, I’ve reached the featureless shores
of the Euxine Sea – this land beneath the frozen pole –
yet I’m not so much tormented by this weather, never
free of cold, this soil always hardened by white frost,
these barbarian tongues ignorant of the Latin language,
this Greek speech submerged in the sounds of Getic,
as by the fact that I’m encircled, and shut in on all sides
by nearby conflict: a thin wall scarcely keeps the enemy out.
While there’s peace at times, there’s no reliance on peace:
so the place now endures attack, and now fears it.
If only I could transfer from here, let Zanclean Charybdis
swallow me, and send me down to Styx in her waves,
or let me suffer the flames, in the fires of greedy Etna,
or be thrown in the ocean deep, offered to the Leucadian god.
What I ask is punishment: truly, I don’t evade suffering,
but I beg that I might suffer somewhere safer.
Obviously there's also another more important one "Among The Getae"...
Ovid, Tristia, Book VII, :45-79Book TV.VII:1-68 Among The Getae
The letter you’re reading comes to you from that land
where the wide Danube adds its waters to the sea.
If you are still alive and have sweet health,
one part of my fate retains its brightness.
Dearest friend, you’re doubtless asking yourself
how I am, though you know, even if I’m silent.
I’m miserable: that’s a brief summary of my ills,
and whoever lives on having offended Caesar, will be so.
Are you interested to know what the people round Tomis
are like, and the customs of those I live among?
Though there’s a mix of Greeks and Getae on this coast,
it’s characterised more by the barely civilised Getae.
Great hordes of Sarmatians and Getae pass
to and fro, along the trails, on horseback.
There’s not one among them who doesn’t carry
bow, quiver, and arrows pale yellow with viper’s gall:
Harsh voices, grim faces, the true image of Mars,
neither beard or hair trimmed, hands not slow
to deal wounds with the ever-present knife
that every barbarian carries, strapped to his side.
Alas, dear friend, your poet is living among them,
seeing them, hearing them, forgetting those he loves:
and would he were not alive, and died among them,
so that his shade might yet leave this hateful place.
You write that my songs are being danced now
to a crowded theatre, my verses applauded, dear friend,
though for my part I’ve composed nothing for the theatre,
as you know yourself, my Muse isn’t eager for applause.
Still I’m not ungrateful for anything that prevents
my being forgotten, and brings the exile’s name to the lips.
Though I sometimes curse the poetry
that has harmed me, and my Muses,
when I’ve cursed them at length, I still can’t be without them,
I seek the weapons blood-stained from my wounds,
and the Greek ship battered by the waves of Euboea
dares to run the waters of Cape Caphereus.
Yet I don’t labour all night for the praise, or work
for the sake of a future name that were better hidden.
I occupy my mind with studies: beguile my sorrow,
trying to deceive my cares with words.
What else can I do, alone on this desert strand,
what other help for these ills should I try to find?
If I look at the place, the place is hateful,
and nothing could be sadder on this earth,
if at the people, they barely deserve the name,
they’ve more cruel savagery in them than wolves.
They fear no law: justice yields to force,
and right is overturned by the sword’s aggression.
They keep off the evils of cold with pelts
and loose trousers, shaggy faces hidden in long hair.
A few still retain vestiges of the Greek language,
though even this the Getic pronunciation barbarises.
There’s not a single one of the population who might
chance to utter a few words of Latin while speaking.
I, the Roman poet – forgive me, Muses! –
am forced to speak Sarmatian for the most part.
See, I’m ashamed to admit it, from long disuse,
now, the Latin words scarcely even occur to me.
I don’t doubt there are more than a few barbarisms
in this book: it’s not the man’s fault but this place.
Yet, lest I lose the use of the Italian language,
and my own voice be muted in its native tongue,
I speak to myself, using forgotten phrases,
and retrace the ill-fated symbols of my studies.
So I drag out my life, and time, so I retreat from
and banish the contemplation of my troubles.
I seek forgetfulness of my misery in song:
if I win that prize by my studies, it’s enough.
So what we have are the Scythian Getae and the Sarmatians speaking some bad Greek probably learned from the Greek colonies or through trade and spoken with bad pronounciation. BUT Greek was not the language of the Getae.
I think that it is safe to speculate that the Getae spoke Gothic/Guthans on account of the connection that Jordanes makes. It would explain a lot... If that isn't the case then they were Sarmatian speakers.
Last edited by Getwulf; December 21, 2012 at 07:31 AM.
Sai rodida Guthans!
Jordanes, writing in mod 6th century, some 400 years after the Dacians have ceased to exist as a people, simply imagined the Dacians/Getae and the Goths had always been the same ethnic group.
At best the mid-6th century Goths were the product of the intermarriage of the Free Dacians and the original Goths.
@Diegis, I'll have to postpone my answer for after the Christmas, so I wish you and other posters an awesome and merry new (Mayan) cycle and Christmas too
Last edited by Tiberios; December 22, 2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: ToS violation removed.
Sai rodida Guthans!
Last edited by Tiberios; December 22, 2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Continuity
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