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Thread: Thraco-Dacian expansion during Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age

  1. #61
    Princeps Posterior
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    Default Re: Thraco-Dacian expansion during Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age

    Quote Originally Posted by mircea View Post

    Jorandes himself claims that Vesosis waged a war with Scythians, is beyond one's understanding where you saw Getae

    Jordanes V.44
    "Then, as the story goes, Vesosis waged a war disastrous to himself against the Scythians, whom ancient tradition asserts to have been the husbands of the Amazons.(Tunc, ut fertur, Vesosis Scythis lacrimabile sibi potius intulit bellum, eis videlicet)
    Thus we can clearly prove that Vesosis then fought with the Goths, since we know surely that he waged war with the husbands of the Amazons."
    Let me give you a better example, Valerius Flaccus (Argonautica), few centuries before Jordanes (who, as many times, messed up few things there)

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/ValeriusFlaccus5.html

    <<Delighted with the temple’s varied imagery the leader likewise casts his gaze upon eh double doors, beholding here the infancy and origin of the Colchian race; how first their king Sesostris22 waged war upon the Getae, how terrified by the slaughter of his people he withdrew some to Thebae and his native stream, and settled others upon the land of Phasis and bade them be called Colchians>>

  2. #62
    mircea's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: Thraco-Dacian expansion during Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age

    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    Let me give you a better example, Valerius Flaccus (Argonautica), few centuries before Jordanes (who, as many times, messed up few things there)

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/ValeriusFlaccus5.html

    <<Delighted with the temple’s varied imagery the leader likewise casts his gaze upon eh double doors, beholding here the infancy and origin of the Colchian race; how first their king Sesostris22 waged war upon the Getae, how terrified by the slaughter of his people he withdrew some to Thebae and his native stream, and settled others upon the land of Phasis and bade them be called Colchians>>
    Very interesting find, and for this you deserve some rep.

    But the truth is that this changes nothing. First of all the text makes no mention of Getae invanding Asia, with the author mentioning that Sesostris supposedly left a part of his army in “the land of Phasis”, which is the main river of western Georgia.

    Secondly, Flaccus’ assertions regarding Sesostris’ defeat is contradicted by pretty much all previous authors that spoke about this legendary event.

    Thus, Heredotus, writing more than 5 centuries before the poet Valerius Flaccus (1st century AD) says that: “Leaving the latter aside, then, I shall speak of the king who came after them, whose name was Sesostris [Note]. This king, the priests said, set out with a fleet of long ships [Note] from the Arabian Gulf and subjugated all those living by the Red Sea, until he came to a sea which was too shallow for his vessels. After returning from there back to Egypt, he gathered a great army (according to the account of the priests) and marched over the mainland, subjugating every nation to which he came. When those that he met were valiant men and strove hard for freedom, he set up pillars in their land, the inscription on which showed his own name and his country's, and how he had overcome them with his own power; but when the cities had made no resistance and been easily taken, then he put an inscription on the pillars just as he had done where the nations were brave; but he also drew on them the private parts of a woman, wishing to show clearly that the people were cowardly. He marched over the country doing this until he had crossed over from Asia to Europe and defeated the Scythians and Thracians. Thus far and no farther, I think, the Egyptian army went; for the pillars can be seen standing in their country, but in none beyond it. From there, he turned around and went back home; and when he came to the Phasis river, that King, Sesostris, may have detached some part of his army and left it there to live in the country (for I cannot speak with exact knowledge), or it may be that some of his soldiers grew weary of his wanderings, and stayed by the Phasis.”
    http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-...Hdt.%202.103.2

    Similarly, Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC) says that: “Then he subdued the Scythians as far as to the river Tanais, which divides Europe from Asia; where they say he left some of his Egyptians at the lake Moeotis, and gave origin to the nations of Colchis; and, to prove that they were originally Egyptians, they bring this argument, that they are circumcised after the manner of the Egyptians, which custom continued in this colony as it did amongst the Jews. In the same manner he brought into his subjection all the rest of Asia, and most of the islands of the Cyclades. Thence passing over into Europe, he was in danger of losing his whole army, through the difficulty of the passages, and want of provisions. And, therefore, putting a stop to his expedition in Thrace, up and down in all his conquests, he erected pillars, whereon were inscribed, in Egyptian letters, called hieroglyphics, these words:-- "Sesostris, king of kings, and lord of lords, subdued this country by his arms.
    Having now spent nine years in this expedition, (carrying himself courteously and familiarly towards all his subjects in the mean time), he ordered the nations he had conquered, to bring their presents and tributes every year into Egypt, every one proportionable to their several abilities: and he himself, with the captives and the rest of the spoils, (of which there were a vast quantity), returned into Egypt, far surpassing all the kings before him in the greatness of his actions and achievements.”
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Historical_Library/Book_I

    While Strabo writes that “However, Sesostris, the Aegyptian, he adds, and Tearco the Aethiopian advanced as far as Europe; and Nabocodrosor, who enjoyed greater reputation among the Chaldaeans than Heracles, led an army even as far as the Pillars. Thus far, he says, also Tearco went; and Sesostris also led his army from Iberia to Thrace and the Pontus; and Idanthyrsus the Scythian overran Asia as far as Aegypt; but no one of these touched India, and Semiramis too died before the attempt.”
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...abo/15A1*.html

    As I said, most and oldest sources point toward a glorious campaign conducted by Sesostris, who defeats every single foe and forces to submit dozens of people. If I would be to believe what is written here, than it would be very accurate to speak about the Egyptian dominance over Dacians.

    Furthermore, there isn’t any source to speak of Parthians being scions of Dacians, with even Jordanes saying that Vesosis (Sesostris) fought with the “Scythians, whom ancient tradition asserts to have been the husbands of the Amazons. But Jordanes equates Goths with the husbands of the Amazons.(Unde cum Gothis eum tunc dimicasse evidenter probamus quem cum Amazonum viris)”

    He makes not even the slightest mention of Getae invanding Asia, but he alludes that Parhi are named Deserters (fugaces) in Schytian language (lingua Scythica), and once again no mention of Getae language.

  3. #63
    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Thraco-Dacian expansion during Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age

    Getae is the name common to Western Iranic ,Cimmerians included a tribe -Tyragethae near Crimea and on the Scythian frontier existed half-breed nation of Massagetae
    who borrowed from the Hunns and/or other Altaics rather brutal ways . Getae in Europe were ruled by Cimmerian nobles
    Dacians were a tribe ,who did not have lucky slot in Anatolia but were practicing banditry ,like the ansectors of Romans .The sign of wolf ,which both shared was the sigh of banditry in Anatolia . Dacians came to Getae very-very late so mixing them up with the real Getae is no go. They got welcomed proly because Cimmerians remebered that part of their people run to Anatolia .It was in th 7th c BD when Cimmerians in S Ukraine and Crimea got defeated by Scythian tribe Dahae from the Eastern side of the Aral sea .Cimmerian nobles took chariots and fled to Europe ,while middle class tried to conquer Smyrna in Anatolia but got defeated due the outbreak of plague .
    Though pure Romans were distinctively diminutive small of body-1,50 sm. or 5 feets smth so they could not have been gene-kin to Dacians .
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 25, 2013 at 07:02 PM. Reason: details

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