V.068 Feedbacks

[TWmadman]

Please post here your feedbacks and make sure to put your advices and suggestions aswell.

Try to be constructive and make propositions or else it is just spamming.

Regards

[Captain Melon]

Everything so far is great in this mod besides for few grammer mistakes I came across. Only one thing bugs me though. The Giants are a little to small IMO. If they were made twice as large I think it would fit the lore accurate size of them. Other than that amazing work.

[TWmadman]

Giant size and other beasts sizes will not change. They are high enough, and higher than in any other mod. The problems comes with the skeleton animation which makes things difficult and buggy if we make them taller. Believe me : we tried.

[jthewonder]

Amazing job from what i can tell so far ! The only thing i would love to see changed is different spearmen/archers for the dark elves, imo they still look way too similar with all the other factions and dont really blend in that well with naggaroths other units(who look amazing btw).
Other than that, im thrilled with the progress you've made and can't wait to give it the playtime it deserves in the comming weekend

[oberst_ag]

GREAT MOD love it!
2 things Elven horse faction arent avalibal in costum battle and one of the dark elv in campaign.

[Kolwen]

Amazing job from what i can tell so far ! The only thing i would love to see changed is different spearmen/archers for the dark elves, imo they still look way too similar with all the other factions and dont really blend in that well with naggaroths other units(who look amazing btw).
Other than that, im thrilled with the progress you've made and can't wait to give it the playtime it deserves in the comming weekend

We have not released the Dark Elf faction. If you mean the Nagarythe Kingdom then we can't make them so much different because we are trying to fit the lore. They are supposed to be High Elves from the kingdom of Nagarythe, not Dark Elfs.
The Dark Elf faction that will come with the 0.7 version will have its own spearmen/archers

GREAT MOD love it!
2 things Elven horse faction arent avalibal in costum battle and one of the dark elv in campaign.

This is not a bug. There is a limit of factions that can be available in custom battles. Since we wanted to release the Dwarfs, Skaven, Tomb Kings and Orcs we had to remove Ellyrion.

[Sanguinius]

Overall I think both the new updated Sundering and custom battles are impressive, especially the look of the models. Having played it for a while now and making a list of issues as I go along, here's what I have so far with regards to problems in the game. This is from playing as and against all the new custom races on "hard" and playing as Nagarythe on "hard" on campaign.

Campaign:-
Major issues:-

I've found two problems with recruiting and retraining units, 1. Newly built units aren't built with all the upgrades that are available in that city. 2. The computer retrains units automatically without orders to retrain units and this depletes your treasury without giving you control over how to spend your funds.

When trying to move troops along the tops of castle walls they either don't move or have problems moving around the "U" shaped portion of castle walls. i.e. where the gate is. This can make it very hard to secure the gate and let other troops through as there just seems to be some problem with the game understanding where to move the units.

There seems to be a problem with the Nagarythe bolt thrower, this unit keeps killing it's own troops whilst firing and just wipes itself out after a few volleys.

I had a problem on turn 12 when I loaded up my game in that one of my generals "Revion" died for no apparent reason in "Tor Elyr".

A major problem I've found with the A.I. on the strategy map is that it keeps splitting its troops into lots of little armies allowing itself to be destroyed piece by piece, it doesn't concentrate its forces in large stacks.

Another issue with the A.I. is in the RTS battles where the A.I. will just sits statically whilst it is being shot to death with my long range weapons.

Also, when the A.I. does attack it seems too concerned with maintaining a line and keeps stopping and reforming its line of advance whilst being shot to death, it needs to be more aggressive and just charge when being shot up.

Minor issues:-

I received a mission to take the "tower of Milarian" which I did do, however after I did it the game registered it as another faction having taken the city and says I failed the mission even though I took it by myself.

At the very start of turn one the first thing I get is a card informing me that the "Daemons of Chaos" faction has been destroyed.

No doubt you're aware but I'll just mention that many images are still missing from the unit description cards. Also the descriptions for the archers and spearmen are the same as for their militia versions, surely there is a difference between these units that merits a text difference? In Tor Elyr I noticed that the description for the "market" and "port" were missing.

When I go into diplomacy with my allies they seem very reluctant to do simple things like share map info, as we're allies surely they'd be willing to cooperate more?

The A.I. doesn't seem to build up its cities very much, for example the earliest I have seen an A.I. city build a dirt road is turn 7 and even into the 30's some cities haven't built dirt roads.

I know you have mentioned about not wanting to heavily script the game, but it is a bit jarring to get a card like the "Eatine will be ours card" stating how thousands of Nagarythe's best troops have seized a city only for nothing to happen in the game. Maybe have some limited scripting? especially in the early part of the game?

I noticed that the Averlorian capital had troops in it listed as "cultists of Khaine" but they were followers of Asuryan? is this right? surely cultists are pleasure cult followers?

If possible I think a greater colour distinction needs to be made on the troop cards when they are stationed in a city and are not paying upkeep costs due to the "free unit" upkeep function that certain buildings have.

In this update I think Princes and Knights of Anlec have been slowed down? as they seem to have problems running down retreating troops now.

Maybe this isn't a mistake but I received a mission to assassinate a Damon of Chaos? though they are neutral to Nagarythe.

The Temple of Khaine says it "recruits" followers of Asuryan.

I've noticed some glitches (well once) when moving troops off city walls by climbing down ladders in that the troops float in the air at the height of the city wall whilst running along the ground.

Also by turn 33, 3 factions had turned towards the pleasure cult, seems quite a lot and hard for the followers of Asuryan to win, also when factions turn to pleasure cult they remain at war with Nagarythe, this just seems odd given the in game lore.


Custom Battles:-

The descriptions of the forces on the selection screen doesn't seem to work properly and it seems to freeze on a description and give the same description when you click on a new faction this happens most with the orcs.

The Skaven description seems to describe Skaven as being "Brave" and "lacking armour and weapons" this seems to be the opposite of Skaven in the in game lore?

Skeleton axemen seem to be the same cost as spearmen but are both fewer in number and worse in quality.

For a lot of the "elite" units the number of units in the unit doesn't match the number on the card e.g. 6 Bone giants on the card but 2 on screen and 4 Tomb Scorpions on screen but 12 on the card.

The Bone Giant seems to have a highly delayed reaction when being charged they'll "walk about" for quite a while before hitting back.

One unit that seemed very strange to be missing is the Skaven slave unit, in game lore this is the most common Skaven unit type.

Problems I've found with the A.I. in battles are that they'll place units like skaven Grey Seers on their flanks without protection making them easy to kill with a cavalry charge.

The A.I. is too concerned with forming and reforming lines when attacking, doesn't just charge, this is especially bad with the Bloodthirster units for Chaos who seem to stop and "pose" more often than other units when advancing towards the enemy.

The Pink horrors and Flamers don't seem to have a "loose" formation option, also the "Pink" horrors are blue. Now I understand that getting the pink horrors to respawn when killed as 2 blue horrors is probably beyond the game engine, but why not make them pink? they are PINK Horrors after all.

I've seen the Dwarfs move off of high ground even when having plenty of long range fire power, this is just crazy. Also Dwarfs seem to be the most unbalanced army (too weak) on the custom games, they're very slow but don't seem to be able to hold up against enemy fire very well and therefore can't really charge at all against an enemy with any kind of firepower.

The range detection on the Dwarf flame cannon seems off, its fire falls short and by the time it's ready to fire again the enemy has normally engaged it.

A few points about gameplay matching up with in game lore, Daemons take prisoners in the battles, seems out of context. Undead troops have moral and can break, this seems out of context, Undead troops have no will of their own, can't their morale be turned off so they can't break? I imagine the same holds true with Daemons of Chaos, would a Bloodthirster of Khorne really run from a fight?

I noticed that "night goblins" are classified as "heavy infantry", this just doesn't seem right, they are light infantry in warhammer. I know they are made tough with their fanatics and maybe fanatics can't be made with the game engine so you did this to balance it out, but it still seems odd.

Maybe it can't be changed but the Screaming skull catapult doesn't fire screaming skulls, just boulders. Wouldn't it be possible to add the sounds of the screaming skull from Dark Omen or something when the Screaming Skull catapult fires if not a visual firey skull being shot?

Also the A.I. walks a lot when under fire rather than charging.

Now I know I've made a long list, but I don't want to give the wrong impression a lot of these are very minor points or might be things that you can't change. Overall I do think that the mod is great, these are just the things that I find would make the mod even greater if they could be addressed.

[TWmadman]

Thank you for this very good report, this is by far more complete and useful feedback i received.

Be sure we will use this point per point to see what can be done!

[kwarktaart]

playing as Chrace
Anar was made into a vassal by nargarythe but they are still in the phoenix king favor thingy
so Anar attacks me and takes the village closest to them, when I took it back king Caledor got mad at me and reduces my standing to 0

[jthewonder]

We have not released the Dark Elf faction. If you mean the Nagarythe Kingdom then we can't make them so much different because we are trying to fit the lore. They are supposed to be High Elves from the kingdom of Nagarythe, not Dark Elfs.
The Dark Elf faction that will come with the 0.7 version will have its own spearmen/archers

Oh i see, i guess i should've looked into the lore a bit more before giving my feedback. I'll try and do so the next time

PS. Nice job sanguinius!

[TWmadman]

Np mate, that is really a minor point. enjoy the mod

[knight of meh]

amazing mod can't believe all the beasties

i have one question though i played my first campaign as Avelorn and when i constructed the chamber of courage in one of the cities i could no longer recruit any infantry is this meant to happen?

[Kolwen]

Yeah, it's a bug, I'm sorry. You shouldn't be able to upgrade until that level :\

[knight of meh]

You really have no reason to be sorry , i just wanted to make sure you were aware of it , and as far as bugs go once your aware of this one its perfecly ignoreable . Also to be honest thats the only obvious bug i noticed on my first play through and thats something of a minor miracle on a mod of that size Congratz!!

[MAurelius11]

I wanted to play this mod so bad I deleted M2TW from my Steam and installed the disc version I've had for years. It took half a day to get all the patches and install everything, but it was worth it because I can play the mod now!

Some thought:

-Units seem to move really fast, particularly cultists and bolt throwers. That's fine, but the animations look off. Like the bolt throwers look like they are being dragged behind the machine rather than pushing it, and the disciples have a roadrunner-esque look when they are in retreat.

-Many models, but a great example where it's obvious is the Witch Elves, are bow-legged and have feet that point outwards rather than forwards, When they run it looks like they all had a painful experience falling on a cactus before the battle. (Might also be from all the, erm, pleasure cult stuff they partake in).

-Avelorn generals are referred to as "Prince", where maybe "Princess" or "Lady" would be more appropriate.

-The Everqueen kind of stoops in her fighting stance, like she's crouching and about ready to spring up. That might be by design, but it looks odd compared to the straight standing Handmaids.

-Aren't Lothern Sea Guard supposed to be the Eataine elite unit? I ask because they were wrecked on the walls by Witch Elves during the first turn scripted siege of Lothern. When I play as Averlorn basic level 1 troops like the little hedgehog tree things (that you get from Isha temple) seem to do better against the Witch Elves.

I haven't tried any custom battles yet, I enjoy the campaign too much! However, I really suck at it. I have been beat on medium three times as Avelorn (Dark Elves rush me and I just can't hold out) and twice as Eataine (the scripted Dark Elf attack on Lothern is impossible for me to stop). Which faction would be the easiest? Saphery? The green one to the east of Saphery, with the Cove Guards? The Dark Elves seem to have the advantage, but I don't like playing evil nations.

I'm glad I can finally get the game to work, even if it took so much time to get the disc version of M2TW installed.

UPDATE: Ok, played around with Yrvesse for a bit. Much easier start with no Nagarythe, just cultists. However, Saphery are a bunch of jerks and break alliances left and right. You guys must have put in some kind of AI money cheat because they only have 4 territories and yet they send stack after stack against me, while I have close to 8 territories now, and I'm spending every cent I get on economy buildings, and I'm pulling in about 12k a turn. However, being desperate to fend them off taught me an exploit. They will declare war on me, then that next turn I send a diplo to them and get them to pay ME 10-15k for a ceasefire. Since they declare war on me every 5 turns or so it's a nice bit of supplemental income, but really I need every cent of it. I am trying really hard to get Griffin Riders because that's the only troop of Yrvesse that can compete with the big boys (treemen, sorceresses, etc.) Right now I'm running my king from one end to the other because he can fight off stack after stack.

Found some more bugs:

-I was asked if I wanted to support Alith Anar as the leader of Nagarythe, and I said no, but despite that he joined me anyway, but he spawned near the Anar capitol which at that time was surrounded by multi stack Nagarythe armies so of course he couldn't move anywhere and then they attacked him and he died. Really no point in getting him unless he appears at your capitol and really that option shouldn't even be available until the text comes up about him living with wolves in Avalorn, which I got many turns after he offered his services to me.

-I also got a message one turn that my ally needed my help and would pay me for it, and that an army was sent, but nothing happened. It never even said who the ally was, and I certainly didn't send any troops.

-Finally, there is an Yrvesse city called Emmerald something, and unless that's elvish and due to the lore, I think it should be Emerald.

The unit shields are awesome. I love how when I'm attacked by different factions they are clearly different. even though they are the same troop type.

[Machakeda]

Sorry open a new thread abut the same but maybe for my english its said bad word or something...?

Congratulations again for the good job! Beautiful units but some of them too rare in campaign, i can realise that with scripts like this:

if I_IsFactionAIControlled byzantium
add_money byzantium 100000
or this

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType byzantium
and IsFactionAIControlled
and Treasury < 5000
and LosingMoney
increment_kings_purse byzantium 100000
end_monitor

You meant that Nagarythe has to conquer the Ulthuan, well, thats fine but at least give the chance of dying with dignity to other factions, no with single spearmen, archers, high spear, high archers, and some silver helms.
I know that other units mean to be rear and available (some of them) as mercenaries, and for sure a headache to make the IA build high tiers and recruit best unit before falling bankrupt many times before.

Some reasons i found;
Because it should be a challenge for you to make more enjoyable for players to survive more turns( more hours of playing), and at least buildig high tiers to recruit better units (to enjoy your wonderful units).
Because the lore said that nagarythe has the estrongest armies in Ulthuan as; nagarythe manticore, nagarythe elthin spearmen, nagarythe elthin crossbowmen, nagarythe sorcerer, War hydra. You will not see recruiting them "in a Dragon' age" if only recruit base units.

Solutions, make those so powerful money rich scripts from the 50 turn in advance, or give money bonuses for building higher tier to enable the recruiting best units. Its my humble opinion, you know better than me, im just a player who enjoy building, surviving many turns and making my units gain chevrons (experience) by battles and upgrading armour.

Why many mods from kingdoms stop building stone forts? if they can be destroyed after leaving them will not block any roads...also is giving a variation in a game playing and repetitive battles.

Another challenge for you if you want to take it...there are three island regions, and as the turns go on, they get full stacks of armies ruining the economy and the players eyes. In made in EDB available to cultist and avelorn carracks and grande carrack to help landing those armies, but they dont want to recruit ships at all, why?

One little data is missing, the portrait of old General in avelorn.

I dont want to cheat as all we know the cheats in this game so you dont cheat with scripts.
Thanks and sorry by my english.
Congratulations again for the map, units and agresiveness of the IA, also for the portraits and so on

[Kolwen]

Hello Machakeda,
In the latest versions, people complained about a very passive AI, and there are two ways to increase the aggressivity.
1) Spawning Stacks
2) Boosting the economy
We chose the second way. I think it is fair. At least the AI will need some time to recruit their units. The M2TW engine is not perfect, and we do what we can with what we have.
We can't give bonuses to the AI to push them to recruit high tier units. At least we don't know any way. If you do, please tell me how. Take into account that Naggarythe is a playable faction, and we can't simply make their high tier buildings and units cheaper. If we activate the economical boost from turn 50, the AI will be completely stuck until that turn, since if they are outnumbered they stay defensive.
About the full stacks being recruited in islands, the only thing that we could do is set land bridges so those units can walk through the sea, but I don't think it's a good idea. Those factions have already ships, if they don't use them is a problem of the game engine, not the mod.
Thanks for the report about the old generals.
I don't like to cheat, but what can we do if the M2TW AI management is so ? The solution is not so simple.
If you liked the aggresivity of our mod we can kill it by applying your suggestions.
Best regards!

[Machakeda]

Thank to make understand the complexity and limitations of the engine.
Ellyrion can't recruit spy or assassin instead has peasants...I know it shoudnt be like this, but the funny thing is that played a battle to see...and there is no texture.

[Tomsie]

Hi guys, bit off topic currently but didn't want to start a new thread. Just here to give a big thank you to your team. Played the initial release and really enjoyed it, iv downloaded the new version and will update my post later with any thoughts. This forum isn't half as busy as it deserves to be, and I'm amazed at the progress you have made so quickly with such a small team. Iv donated 50quid through the mod db page, I hope its enough for you guys to have a pint or 2 on me over Xmas. Iv been really dissappointed with most games 'AAA' games iv bought in the past couple of years, you really are more deserving of the money. Anyway, thanks again, I really would be lost without people such as yourselves willing to put in so much of your time to these kinds of projects. I hope you all realise how much your work means to people, even if we're not always a vocal part of the forums. Anyway, goodluck with .70, and I wish you all the very best in future endeavors.

[TWmadman]

Thank you for your kind words! Really appreciated!

We try our best and we will not give up untill we are satisfied.

Enjoy the new beta