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  1. #1

    Default Why is slavery bad?

    Foreword: No, this is not a trick question, and no, I am not trying to flame or troll.

    That being said, I'll move on to the topic at hand. I have 2 main (pre)suppositions:

    1. Historiography has established the reasons behind the abolitionist campaigns, centered
    around the figure of Wilberforce, and like everything in history, it was abolished for pragmatic
    (in this case economic) reasons, the later justified as the "moral" and "good thing" to do.
    Mainly this serves to offset the "it was abolished because it was not moral" considerations.

    2. A slave, especially in the ancient forms of slavery, had to be kept well-fed and and in
    good health to be able to work, a luxury most of the global workforce doesn't have, and in
    various instances of "modern" slavery the family had to be kept in good health as well, to
    allow for the reproduction the workforce. Some slaves even served as physicians or teachers
    and had good living standards, again that is not the case for teachers in my country for
    example.

    And I'm not talking about specific instances of slavery, despite what suppostion 1 may have
    led you to believe. I'm talking about slavery in general, i.e., the concept of one person having
    ownership of another, thus making said person much more responsible for his or her "investment"
    (the slave) than a capitalist for his workers, that he can simply pay a low wage and fire him at
    will.

    So I would like for you to present arguments against slavery. For the sake of a fruitful debate,
    please refrain from using arguments such as "It's evil!!1!" and whatnot. Also, this is not a race-
    oriented post, as slavery, as history shows, need not be restricted by race or any other factor.

    EDIT: I was not in which forum I should have put this. If any Moderator thinks it's best to have
    it in another forum or subsection, feel free to move it (not that you need my permission).
    Last edited by Khannis; November 29, 2012 at 01:58 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    1. Historiography has established the reasons behind the abolitionist campaigns, centered
    around the figure of Wilberforce, and like everything in history, it was abolished for pragmatic
    (in this case economic) reasons, the later justified as the "moral" and "good thing" to do.
    Mainly this serves to offset the "it was abolished because it was not moral" considerations.
    This doesn't make the abolition of slavery wrong.

    2. A slave, especially in the ancient forms of slavery, had to be kept well-fed and and in
    good health to be able to work, a luxury most of the global workforce doesn't have, and in
    various instances of "modern" slavery the family had to be kept in good health as well, to
    allow for the reproduction the workforce. Some slaves even served as physicians or teachers
    and had good living standards, again that is not the case for teachers in my country for
    example.
    I doubt house slaves made up the majority of slaves. Besides that, it's still wrong, even if they were kept in good circumstances. You cannot ''own'' a fellow human being. It's morally wrong, because it's never voluntary. If a choice was given whether they wanted to become a slave or not, then it wouldn't be wrong. I think.

    And I'm not talking about specific instances of slavery, despite what suppostion 1 may have
    led you to believe. I'm talking about slavery in general, i.e., the concept of one person having
    ownership of another, thus making said person much more responsible for his or her "investment"
    (the slave) than a capitalist for his workers, that he can simply pay a low wage and fire him at
    will.
    A slave owner can also just pay no wage and keep his slaves in piss-poor condition. There's no obligation to treat a slave better than a worker.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by NotYetRegistered View Post
    This doesn't make the abolition of slavery wrong.



    I doubt house slaves made up the majority of slaves. Besides that, it's still wrong, even if they were kept in good circumstances. You cannot ''own'' a fellow human being. It's morally wrong, because it's never voluntary. If a choice was given whether they wanted to become a slave or not, then it wouldn't be wrong. I think.



    A slave owner can also just pay no wage and keep his slaves in piss-poor condition. There's no obligation to treat a slave better than a worker.
    1. Nor does it make it right, that's the point, it's irrelevant.

    2. History begs to differ, you can own a human being, and in fact, compared to the time slavery has been around, not owning another person is a fad. Also,
    most slaves in antiquity were captured in wars, so it was a choice, of sorts. Either surrender and be enslaved or die in battle. Not to mention that many
    brought from Africa had been in a similar situation.

    3. There's no obligation, obviously, but why keep your slaves in piss-poor conditions since you bought them and they work better if better fed and better
    cared for? You, as a slave-owner, are just getting more out of your investment by keeping them in better conditions.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    3. There's no obligation, obviously, but why keep your slaves in piss-poor conditions since you bought them and they work better if better fed and better
    cared for? You, as a slave-owner, are just getting more out of your investment by keeping them in better conditions.
    The same argument exists for "capitalists" paying their workers a higher wage or other benefits. In fact since the laborer at least has the freedom to try and find other employment the business owner also has to compete with other owners on a labor market.

    The slave market sells human beings, and the slave unlike the laborer has no say in the matter.

    So clearly slavery and wage labor are not the same thing at all. Second it is wrong simply because it removes all rights from the individual enslaved. The slave owner is responsible for them, but in the same way they are responsible for their chickens or their cattle. They have no legal or moral responsibility for them as slave owners, and therefore they are not likely to care for them well.

    Throughout history there were slaves who, at least in terms of material comforts, were better off than their struggling free counterparts. Yet enslavement is not a career choice, there is a good reason that a person has to be coerced into it. Being poor with rights is always a more secure social position than being a slave with access to material goods that do not belong to you, and which can be taken away along with your life at the whim of your master.

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    2. History begs to differ, you can own a human being, and in fact, compared to the time slavery has been around, not owning another person is a fad. Also, most slaves in antiquity were captured in wars, so it was a choice, of sorts. Either surrender and be enslaved or die in battle. Not to mention that many brought from Africa had been in a similar situation.
    So basically, there is a choice between slavery and death? How is it a fair choice if there's no free man's option?

    3. There's no obligation, obviously, but why keep your slaves in piss-poor conditions since you bought them and they work better if better fed and better
    cared for? You, as a slave-owner, are just getting more out of your investment by keeping them in better conditions.
    Why would you care more for your slaves than for your employees? It doesn't make sense.

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    3. There's no obligation, obviously, but why keep your slaves in piss-poor conditions since you bought them and they work better if better fed and better
    cared for? You, as a slave-owner, are just getting more out of your investment by keeping them in better conditions.
    The same for sweat-shop workers. Why would slave owners treat his slaves better than the boss of sweat shop treating his workers?

  7. #7
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    The innate human instinct of empathy combined with the necessity of utilitarian ethics for a civilized state (aka a theoretical meritocracy) to function cohesively.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    In order to function properly a System of Social Stratification as rigid as the Slave-Class one needs to be backed by an universally and deeply accepted Set of Values and Norms. In other words: the more rigid(resistant to change and individual action) a Social System is the more powerful the Underlying Moral Consensus has to be.

    I can only think of one Modern, Capitalist and Technologically Advanced country that gets really, really close to such a powerful Moral Consensus. And that's Singapore.

    Other countries(specifically western democracies), by installing rigid Slavery Systems, would be fueling even more their inner social tensions(crimes, corruption and dysfunctional arbitrary actions with their emotional psychological and medical consecuences), or even risk an all out Class-War(The political organization of those ''enslaved'' into a Sub-System of Society that aims to radically, and violently, change the social structure).

    Also, what Himster said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The innate human instinct of empathy combined with the necessity of utilitarian ethics for a civilized state (aka a theoretical meritocracy) to function cohesively.
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; November 29, 2012 at 04:23 PM.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The innate human instinct of empathy combined with the necessity of utilitarian ethics for a civilized state (aka a theoretical meritocracy) to function cohesively.
    If it's so innate then why did it take us thousands of years to slowly get rid of it?

    I'm pretty sure that people in Antiquity preferred Aristotle's explanation of slavery:

    ''those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.''

    I'm always skeptical of claims of 'inherent' or 'universal' human values that took millenia to manifest themselves in a minority of the world's population.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    If it's so innate then why did it take us thousands of years to slowly get rid of it?
    We didn't get rid of it from our heart. I'm not referring to workers under slave-like condition but those who are willing to give up their freedom for short-term comfort and false sense of security.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    We didn't get rid of it from our heart. I'm not referring to workers under slave-like condition but those who are willing to give up their freedom for short-term comfort and false sense of security.
    What do you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  12. #12
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Slavery is bad because people aren't property to be bought and sold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Slavery as it has been historically used is bad.
    However, I do agree with Sir Thomas More in his book Utopia in how Utopia implements slavery. Because I don't want to spend a lot of time writing why (at least for now), I'll just copy and paste a paragraph from a paper I wrote in my Utopia class that illustrated elements of More's Utopia that could apply in today's society.
    FYI, this was the first and only draft, so there will be grammatical errors.
    Criminal punishment is one aspect of More’s utopia that stands out as very beneficial to today’s society. He opines a solution in both sections in Utopia. At the time, there were no life sentence for committing crimes, it was either paying a fine (money or something else) or it was punishable by death. Even today there are still crimes in the US that, depending on the state, are punishable by death. In the US today, life sentences are more frequent than execution. This is seen as a negative by many law abiding citizens, why should they have to pay for the upkeep of criminals with life sentences? Instead they would want execution, but why this alternative? Death will not right the criminal’s wrong doing. If a man steals from another, the only way to solve this is to make him pay some sort of compensation equal in value to what the victim lost. What if the man steals another’s life, via murdering him/her? Killing that man certainly will not bring back the victim’s life, the only result of such an event would be a wasted loss of two lives, instead of one, and a loss in the society’s productive capacity. Life in prison, without the criminal having to fulfill any conditions, leads not only to two wasted lives and the loss in the society’s productive capacity but it also will be a drain on those who have to pay for the upkeep of the prisoners, i.e. the law abiding citizens. More’s solution to this is, to put it bluntly, slavery.

    People in the modern condemn slavery as a barbaric practice, but that is because it has not been used in the way that More prescribes. More proposes that the punishment for crimes should be slavery, “…even of the greatest crimes,” (76). More reasons that slavery is a greater punishment than death; in the case of murder it would restore some equilibrium. The condemned would not be a slave for some private owner; instead they would be what one could call a public slave. More says that making criminals slaves benefits the community than the criminal’s death ever would (76). By doing this, instead of having two wasted lives, you only have one and the drop in society’s productive capacity will be small because of the loss of only one life. It is slavery because they would not earn wages they keep, rather those wages would go towards their upkeep at the prison or wherever they are housed. They do not deserve any extra wages, they are supposed to be paying back those who they have wronged, it should not be the other way around. If the slaves are unruly, More says that death is the only option, which can be rationalized. The criminals were given a second chance and decided to waste it. In a way, More is right, there comes a time when you need to draw a line on how many chances you are willing to give. If you are too lenient, then the criminal knows he/she can get away with just about anything. So while More is right about drawing the line on how many chances people deserve, two should not be the rule of thumb, instead it should vary depending on the crime, as should the amount of time spent as a slave. For criminals who have life sentences, More says that there is the chance that if they do their time patiently, their crimes will be pardoned by either the people or the government (in Utopia, More does not say government he says the Prince) (76).



  14. #14

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The innate human instinct of empathy combined with the necessity of utilitarian ethics for a civilized state (aka a theoretical meritocracy) to function cohesively.
    How would you explain this "innate" empathy? Where was that when whole societies functioned on the basis of slave labor? And "civilized"? How do you judge what is civilized and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Slavery is bad because people aren't property to be bought and sold.
    I sincerely hope you're joking. If people weren't property to be bought and sold, they wouldn't have. But guess what: They were!

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Gothicus View Post
    In order to function properly a System of Social Stratification as rigid as the Slave-Class one needs to be backed by an universally and deeply accepted Set of Values and Norms. In other words: the more rigid(resistant to change and individual action) a Social System is the more powerful the Underlying Moral Consensus has to be.

    I can only think of one Modern, Capitalist and Technologically Advanced country that gets really, really close to such a powerful Moral Consensus. And that's Singapore.

    Other countries(specifically western democracies), by installing rigid Slavery Systems, would be fueling even more their inner social tensions(crimes, corruption and dysfunctional arbitrary actions with their emotional psychological and medical consecuences), or even risk an all out Class-War(The political organization of those ''enslaved'' into a Sub-System of Society that aims to radically, and violently, change the social structure).
    How would someone measure these sets of values and the moral consensus? Why Singapore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩ View Post
    Slavery as it has been historically used is bad.
    However, I do agree with Sir Thomas More in his book Utopia in how Utopia implements slavery. Because I don't want to spend a lot of time writing why (at least for now), I'll just copy and paste a paragraph from a paper I wrote in my Utopia class that illustrated elements of More's Utopia that could apply in today's society.
    FYI, this was the first and only draft, so there will be grammatical errors.
    Really interesting, I myself never read the Utopia, but you sure got me curious

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    I sincerely hope you're joking. If people weren't property to be bought and sold, they wouldn't have. But guess what: They were!
    Were. Now, they are not. And now, slavery is illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Were. Now, they are not. And now, slavery is illegal.
    Thank you, Captain Obvious, for describing the status quo. Your point is?

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    Thank you, Captain Obvious, for describing the status quo. Your point is?
    People have rights. They are not property to be bought and sold. That why slavery is bad and also illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khannis View Post
    How would someone measure these sets of values and the moral consensus? Why Singapore?
    Mainly through comparative analysis of three things:

    - Institutional Confidence(the trust citizens deposit in the governamental institutions).
    - Crime rates(the lower they are the less deviant behaviors one encounters)
    - Ideological and moral dispersion(the more ideologically and morally disperse a society is the more plural and individualistic it's value framework is).

    Why Singapore? because, google that.

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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    Slavery is bad for ecnomical reasons. Example, you are a slaveowner and I have a business based on wage labor.
    I only have to pay minimum wage for my employees. You on the other hand have to pay for the slaves shelter, clothing and food. You'll end up paying more for your slaves than I will for my employees.



  20. #20
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    Default Re: Why is slavery bad?

    At its most basic it's bad simply because the economical freedom of buying, selling and owning slaves infringes on the personal freedom of the slave to make pretty much any decision.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

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