View Poll Results: Which daimyo of the Beginning of the Sengoku Jidai was best?

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  • Saito Dosan

    5 20.83%
  • Ota Dokan

    1 4.17%
  • Oda Nobuhide

    7 29.17%
  • Imagawa Yoshimoto

    8 33.33%
  • Hojo Soun

    4 16.67%
  • Hojo Ujitsuna

    4 16.67%
  • Hosokawa Takakuni

    1 4.17%
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Thread: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

  1. #1
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    This is similar to some of the other polls from before. I am essentially asking which one do you think was the best.
    The beginning of the Sengoku Jidai was characterized by literally hundreds of Daimyos in which a Samurai would usurp power from the Shogunate and rule their own provinces. Despite the hundreds to choose from, the most notable daimyo in this early period were probably those which began the aggrandizement of their clans. This is a very poorly documented time period but also very interesting and probably very neglected by everyone.
    My criteria for the time period is based on if the daimyos are from before Takeda Shingen. Mori Motonari does not count in this period; although he was considered very old by the main event of the 1560's he did very little before that time (doing things mostly during or after the 1540's), he was also the only living person from the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai still alive by then.


    Saito Dosan 1494 - 1556


    Hosokawa Takakuni 1484 - 1531


    Ota Dokan 1432 - 1486


    Oda Nobuhide 1510 - 1551


    Imagawa Yoshimoto 1519 - 1560 (probably very underrated, he did after all conquer a vast territory)


    Hojo Soun 1432 - 1519


    Hojo Ujitsuna 1487 - 1541

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  2. #2
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I voted for Hojo Soun, Saito Dosan, Ota dokan and Oda Nobuhide.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  3. #3

    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Voted Imagawa Yoshimoto on this one, as you say very underrated indeed. But history is written by the victors. If he was not ambushed, he would most likely have become shogun.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I definitely have to be realistic about his military skill, he lost to Nobuhide at one point and defeated some years later with his huge army. As an actual commander his skill is limited and I don't believe he is the equal of Nobunaga, Kenshin, Shingen or even Motonari. But the fact that he has like 3 provinces when everyone else has one or two at most definitely means that he has a real chance.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  5. #5
    DeanE555's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Of course that The Viper (Saito Dosan) is the greatest! you gotta be a great man to turn from a sake pedller to a daimyo of a whole province!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    i would have to go for Saito Dosan, if he hadn't been killed the Oda might never have taken Mino province as Dosan had shown he was a very capable commander by defeating a Hojo army that clearly outnumbered him

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Saito Dosan also defeated Oda Nobuhide in a battle, and Nobuhide was forced to make an alliance between the two. Nobuhide however had a vastly pathetic force and he was probably the only one with the skill to defeat Saito Dosan as proven by his strategic maneuvers before hand, the reason he lost was because the governor of Owari and the Saito allied against him. And considering how Nobuhide's father owned one fortress and Nobuhide conquered 80% of Owari and a few Tokugawa fotresses means that he was really skilled, even defeating Imagawa Yoshimoto. I'd say that the reason he suffered one defeat against Imagawa, Saito and Tokugawa (3 defeats total) was because of his army being of extremely poor quality but also very small. He also depended on cavalry when cavalry tactics and use wasn't all too developed, his massed cavalry assault on the Imagawa centre was brilliant in that battle; later on when he used it on the Imagawa and Tokugawa it didn't work because the Oda infantry was broken and because their centre would not break.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  8. #8

    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Hey mate, poll should also contain Amako Tsunehisa Amako were easily the most powerful house in Chugoku around 1540s. For the moment I voted lord Yoshimoto. Imagawa were definitely a top contender for the seat in early 16th c.; If it were not for the freak events of Okehazama I reckon Oda would have been subdued in short order and we would have probably never heard of the Matsudaira either (at least other than as some very minor daimyo in Kamo district). Yoshimoto was desperately unlucky to have died before he was in control of the whole of Tokai coast. One of my favourite characters for sure, shame they're unplayable in S2TW (I still hope for a DLC, though).

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I'll go for Yoshimoto and Ujitsuna. Yoshimoto is definitely underrated but history was written by Oda Nobunaga after Okehazama.
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  10. #10
    Hojo Soun's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Seriously? People voted for Yoshimoto?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I take it you voted for Hojo Soun?

    Yoshimoto's career was marked by some stupidly simple defeats when he should have won the battles. However the fact that he had three provinces means he is the absolute power house of this time period. So it is not only how good a daimyo is militarily but also how many provinces he has and in his lifetime he never lost a province, he just failed to conquer others. He did however becoming the defining factor in most clan's foreign policy such as for the Oda, Takeda, Hojo, Saito and Tokugawa who had the Imagawa as a valuable ally, a severe threat or their powerful overlords.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  12. #12
    Hojo Soun's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by money View Post
    I take it you voted for Hojo Soun?

    Yoshimoto's career was marked by some stupidly simple defeats when he should have won the battles. However the fact that he had three provinces means he is the absolute power house of this time period. So it is not only how good a daimyo is militarily but also how many provinces he has and in his lifetime he never lost a province, he just failed to conquer others. He did however becoming the defining factor in most clan's foreign policy such as for the Oda, Takeda, Hojo, Saito and Tokugawa who had the Imagawa as a valuable ally, a severe threat or their powerful overlords.
    Of course I voted for myself.

    I admit, the Imagawa clan was one of the dominant powers in Sengoku period Japan for almost have a decade pre-1560... But... The guy literally can't win a battle to save his life.

  13. #13
    Hojo Soun's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I meant "century" not decade...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Hojo Soun View Post
    Of course I voted for myself.

    I admit, the Imagawa clan was one of the dominant powers in Sengoku period Japan for almost have a decade pre-1560... But... The guy literally can't win a battle to save his life.
    That's because he delegated his dirty work to Choro. Yoshimoto and Sessai were the tag team from hell. Lord Nobuhide would have chewed fat for weeks after Matsudaira Hirotada was dragged into the Imagawa camp and certainly after second Azukizaka. Both Takeda Nobutora and Shingen felt compelled to keep on the sunny side of the Suruga daimyo and so did the Hojo. That alone tells a story.

    Having said that, Lord Soun was certainly not to be trifled with. I'm somewhat cross that he felt the need to adopt the Hojo name and mon as Ise name was certainly held in high enough regard at the time. That he decided to become known as Hojo (Go-Hojo, that is) implies vanity not reflected by his crafty and pragmatic nature. Oh well, he still spawned one of the bigges powers Japan had ever seen so good on him.

    I still have a soft spot for Yoshimoto which, I'm pretty sure, comes entirely from playing the Imagawa in the original STW. That picture on clan selection screen where an Imagawa daimyo stares thoughtfully into misty distance on a balcony still haunts me

  15. #15
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default

    Yeah ironically both Nobuhide and Nobunaga inflicted serious defeats on Yoshimoto. Nobuhide could have accomplished much more if he organized a good military and if he had cooperated with the Saito then perhaps the Imagawa would be seriously screwed.

    Also there is this thread if someone is interested and has not yet seen it.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=539716
    Last edited by Ishan; March 25, 2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Double Post

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  16. #16

    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Saito Dosan! For fathering Nouhime!
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Nouhime or Kichu is an interesting figure, her history and indeed relationship with Nobunaga is mostly speculation. In fact many question if Kitsuno and Nouhime weren't actually the same person and the character of Kitsuno was not merely made up. Nobunaga for example, was said to have had over 100 women and yet later on that was considered to be mostly nonsense and the serious historians of those times and even now have stated that was a myth. So it is possible that Nobutada and Nobukatsu were actually born to Nouhime, which seems like an okay speculation considering that we now next to nothing on her actual persona.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  18. #18

    Default

    i'll say Oda Nobuhide, because he choose Nobunaga the fool as the heir and guess what, the fool can beat Imagawa army from scale 1:5 army.

    and

    Saito Dosan, he is great and honest man, too bad he killed by his own full of hatred son.

    cmiiw
    Last edited by Ishan; March 25, 2014 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Double Post
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Jeongbun View Post
    i'll say Oda Nobuhide, because he choose Nobunaga the fool as the heir and guess what, the fool can beat Imagawa army from scale 1:5 army.

    and

    Saito Dosan, he is great and honest man, too bad he killed by his own full of hatred son.

    cmiiw
    Dosan's son could have been Toki's son (Daimyo before Dosan) as he gave his concubine to Dosan after he was de-shugo'd....rumuor has it anyway......

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Greatest daimyo in the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai

    I heard that too, that Toki's wife was pregnant when Dosan killed him and took over.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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