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Thread: Faction Tactics

  1. #1
    Mamertine's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Faction Tactics

    Hello Tsardoms Team and fans,

    I was thinking to myself, "I wish there was a mod that focused on the Balkans during the medieval time". Turns out, there was all along, this one!

    So first and foremost, thank you!

    I was noticed that the topics were few and far between, especially considering how popular this mod is. So I was wondering if you could elaborate on a few things gameplay-wise:

    1. How will your mod differ from others' and/or vanilla in terms of "feel" on the battlefield. Some are more defensive oriented, or downplay archers, emphasize javelins or slingers, promote the use of cavalry or archers, etc.?

    2. What will be the tactics of the various factions? Will Venice depend on mercenaries, yet dominate the sea? Will Turkic factions be heavily horse archer? Serbian Slavs were famous for being light armored infantry with massive use of javelins and ambushes, will this be reflected? Also I was wondering if we could get a little more unit info for factions like Ragusa and Athens. I've read their profiles, but am still left wondering what their strengths and weaknesses will be on the battlefield. I have trouble finding info in this era and location that is not Roman or Venice heavy.

    3. Lastly, I have heard almost nothing about the Sicilian factions (especially Trinacria). Will they still be included? Any updates?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    3. Yes they will be included.

    1.There are many kind of different military cultures in the mod, I think its you who should know what to do againts the enemy you face.

    2. I don't know all the factions but what can I say Turkic factions will generally rely on cavalry but will also have light&medium infantry and bow will be important, Romanian factions will generally rely on light units both cavalry and infantry which will be suitable for ambushes and hit and run tactics, but they will also have a small amount of heavy units in Central European style and will have the access to gunpowder. Serbians and Bosnians as far as I know are more like a mix of European Knightly units mixed with local traditional light Slavic units. Ragusans will generally rely on infantry, a mix of mercenaries, mariners and city militias, Italian factions as well will be similar but they have a small amount of feudal units include cavalry and some colonial units.
    Last edited by Tureuki; November 22, 2012 at 02:33 AM.

  3. #3
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Welcome to the forum mate Tureuki answered most of your questions but I'll make a few additions.

    With the Sicillian factions, they will definetly be included. But they will not have brand new rosters. They will have a mix of vanilla and borrowed units from other mods. Unfortunately we don't have the manpower necessary to do all the factions, as much as we want to.

    There will definitely be different tactics for each faction. For Ragusa as you may have seen in the preview they rely a lot on infantry units and are lacking in cavalry and archers. They have great crossbowmen and gunpowder units. They will also have trade bonuses and other such advantages to other factions.

    The Duchy of Athens will be a very interesting faction. It will probably have the biggest mix of eastern and western type units. The only other similar faction will be the Knights St John. Athens will combine light troops of the Greeks such as archers and javeliners, with the specialised Almoghavers of the Catalan Company and the heavy Aragonese and Frankish knights. But the specialist and the heavy units will have low recruitment rate so they will need to be used with caution. The local Greek troops will have high replenishment rates so they will still be the staple of the faction. The Knights St John will be the same with low recruitment rate for the actual knights, higher rates for western auxiliaries and even higher for local Greek troops.

    We haven't started the work on balancing and stats. So at the moment we don't have a definitive answer on which units will be more powerful or more important. But we aim at as much historical accuracy as possible.

  4. #4
    Mamertine's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Welcome to the forum mate Tureuki answered most of your questions but I'll make a few additions.

    With the Sicillian factions, they will definetly be included. But they will not have brand new rosters. They will have a mix of vanilla and borrowed units from other mods. Unfortunately we don't have the manpower necessary to do all the factions, as much as we want to.

    There will definitely be different tactics for each faction. For Ragusa as you may have seen in the preview they rely a lot on infantry units and are lacking in cavalry and archers. They have great crossbowmen and gunpowder units. They will also have trade bonuses and other such advantages to other factions.

    The Duchy of Athens will be a very interesting faction. It will probably have the biggest mix of eastern and western type units. The only other similar faction will be the Knights St John. Athens will combine light troops of the Greeks such as archers and javeliners, with the specialised Almoghavers of the Catalan Company and the heavy Aragonese and Frankish knights. But the specialist and the heavy units will have low recruitment rate so they will need to be used with caution. The local Greek troops will have high replenishment rates so they will still be the staple of the faction. The Knights St John will be the same with low recruitment rate for the actual knights, higher rates for western auxiliaries and even higher for local Greek troops.

    We haven't started the work on balancing and stats. So at the moment we don't have a definitive answer on which units will be more powerful or more important. But we aim at as much historical accuracy as possible.
    Firstly, thank you and repped. I have been lurking for a while.

    As for the the Sicilian rosters and/or other factions that will not have brand new rosters, will they be given new rosters later on when there is time? I understand some factions take priority over others. Also, which vanilla units will be used and which will be borrowed and from where?

    Some other tactical questions have come to mind. I know that the M2TW engine has an issue with javelin throwing, especially with infantry. Since there seems to be a larger emphasis on javelins in this time period and area, is there anything Tsardoms is doing to address this fault? I know nothing about modding, I have heard that other mods have taken frames out of the animation to speed it up, but cannot do anything about the reloading time.

    Also, I noticed in the previews that are available that there is an important weapon that I have not seen yet, the war hammer or muslim horseman's pick (maybe I missed it). I hope you plan to give those to a few units in varying factions since it was a very useful weapon that came into use around the time of partial and full plate, but I am sure you knew that. And will there be any (non-Swiss) pikemen? I know they were used in this time in Moorish Spain by both sides and I assumed Rome and/or Aragon would have them as well, among others. I love the Wallachian macemen, btw.

    I really appreciate the descriptions you gave me (us) for Duchy of Athens and Knights of St. John, since there is not a preview yet it was very helpful. I was hoping you could enlighten me a little more about the Italian factions, or specifically Trinacria. New factions always peak my curiosity, and the fact that I am Sicilian helps.

    Thank you in advance and do not feel obligated to answer all of them, I'd rather you guys work on the mod than look up answers to all my questions or take a much deserved break.

  5. #5
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Thank you for your interest. It's good to see that our mod is attractive to people in Italy. Especially because it will play quite a large role in the mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    As for the the Sicilian rosters and/or other factions that will not have brand new rosters, will they be given new rosters later on when there is time? I understand some factions take priority over others. Also, which vanilla units will be used and which will be borrowed and from where?
    Well the hope is that once we release the first version of the mod there will be enough public attention and success to warrant further updates. Our dream is to have absolutely all factions with brand new rosters. Our first priority was to make the rosters of the factions which did not exist in vanilla. In terms of the Sicillian roster that hasn't been decided on yet. But most likely we will use the basic units of CSUR the peasants, archers, militia spearmen and crossbowmen, we will also use units created by Giacomo Colonna such as Pavesari, Aragonese Knights, Sicilian Barons plus our own Almoghavers and then generic vanilla units such as handgunners, arquebusiers etc. We are still looking at alternatives and other potential mods with which we can collaborate. Also, my personal hope is that MrCrow will release another set of his Sicillian Roster for the later periods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    Some other tactical questions have come to mind. I know that the M2TW engine has an issue with javelin throwing, especially with infantry. Since there seems to be a larger emphasis on javelins in this time period and area, is there anything Tsardoms is doing to address this fault? I know nothing about modding, I have heard that other mods have taken frames out of the animation to speed it up, but cannot do anything about the reloading time.
    I'm actually not sure on this one. But since our balancing hasn't been done yet i dare say this issue hasn't been addressed yet. Once we have all our units in game we can start looking at that sort of stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    Also, I noticed in the previews that are available that there is an important weapon that I have not seen yet, the war hammer or muslim horseman's pick (maybe I missed it). I hope you plan to give those to a few units in varying factions since it was a very useful weapon that came into use around the time of partial and full plate, but I am sure you knew that. And will there be any (non-Swiss) pikemen? I know they were used in this time in Moorish Spain by both sides and I assumed Rome and/or Aragon would have them as well, among others. I love the Wallachian macemen, btw.
    Yes, the warhammer will be used by one unit in the swiss roster, one unit in the Venetian roster and one unit in the Knigths St John roster so far. Potentially more factions will also have access to this weapon as our rosters get finalised.

    About the pike, yes there will definitely be non-Swiss pikemen. The Italian factions will have access to the long spear infantry known as Picheri. Austria, Hungary, France, Aragon and potentially North Italian states will have access to Landsknecht Pikemen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    I really appreciate the descriptions you gave me (us) for Duchy of Athens and Knights of St. John, since there is not a preview yet it was very helpful. I was hoping you could enlighten me a little more about the Italian factions, or specifically Trinacria. New factions always peak my curiosity, and the fact that I am Sicilian helps.
    At the moment the rosters of the Italian factions have not been completed so I don't have as much information. But Trinacria will be an interesting faction to play. Obviously the first goal will be reunite the Sicilies and overthrow the Angevines from Naples. I have already talked about the Sicilian roster which will have a combination of Italian units, specific Sicilian units, Aragonese units and specific Catalan units.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    To give a few explanations in more about the sicilian roster, from what SicilianVespers told me, most of the sicilian/trinacrian units were quite closes to other italians. At 1350, there were no differences between "ancient sicilian barons" and the aragonese/catalan aggregate. They shared between them the sicilian vicariates, have the same stuff to go at the field, the same duties to the King...only names and heraldries would really divides them. Its always possible to divide them artificially between siculo-italian guelfs(Chiaramonte, Palizzi, Uberti) and aragonese gibelins(Peralta, Alagona; Ventimiglia and Marino-italians too), but its maybe a waste of unit slots. As after 1350, the issues of rivalry were totally solved.

    The catalan companies were almost only used for the external conflicts, such ones against Genua in Corsica and Sardinia, and of course the greek conflicts. Though, those almogavers in Greece acted somewhat such as "free-lances"

    As for "unic unit", the sicilian King have its Marine Heavy Crossbowmen(created under Federico III), who were armoured, experienced, efficients, polyvalents like were the Genoese Feudal Crossbowmen and Chioggia's Crossbowmen. Its the expeditionary shock-unit from that roster, retinued by the King, subjected to him only, garrisoning in Palermo.

    Here, the actual comunal main units of the sicilian cities(so not feudal, nor royal, nor mercenary stuff, only urbans and contadini[peri-urbans])
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Credits: phoenix, Madtao, Rusichi, Lord Calidor, Lord Hamilton, Narf, Magyar Mod 1.0, Disgruntled Goat)

    Berrovieri(1), Spadaccini(2), Balestrieri Comunali(2), Pavesari Comunali(3).
    (1) Patricians
    (2) Artisans
    (3) Low Middle-Class

  7. #7
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Well Giacomo who is our resident Italian expert just answered most of your Trinacrian questions And also previewed some great units aswell +rep!

    From what I was reading at the start of our mod Catania is actually the capital not Palermo. Palermo becomes the capital again in 1401.

    It will be interesting to see how we will deal with the emergence of Aragon when playing with Trinacria. We haven't discussed that yet in the team.

    And also about your question with warhmmers Hrobatos recently posted photos in the New Units section with these Knights St John armed with warhammers




  8. #8

    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Sure, Catania allowed to monitor the vicious Angevins.
    To say the truth, I have only details about their garrisoning from the reign of Martino(at 1407 when Vincentello d'Istria got allegiance to the aragonese party, and receive troops, money and assistance from Martino and his father)

  9. #9
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomo Colonna View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  10. #10
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Those Sicilians look sweet. Nice job guys!
    Under the Patronage of PikeStance


  11. #11
    Mamertine's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Thank you for your interest. It's good to see that our mod is attractive to people in Italy. Especially because it will play quite a large role in the mod.
    Thank you, and I have been in the US since undergrad, but plan on going home soon. I miss the jewel of the med. Plus, it is funny when you see friends from back home and they tell you you sound too American, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Yes, the warhammer will be used by one unit in the swiss roster, one unit in the Venetian roster and one unit in the Knigths St John roster so far. Potentially more factions will also have access to this weapon as our rosters get finalised.
    Now that you put up the pic of the Rhodes infantry with war hammers, it has jogged my memory and I do recall seeing those pics before. I just hope that more than one unit (vanilla) has them, and am glad to hear that is true. I would actually like to see a difference in axes and maces, strategically. But that is something to talk about later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    About the pike, yes there will definitely be non-Swiss pikemen. The Italian factions will have access to the long spear infantry known as Picheri. Austria, Hungary, France, Aragon and potentially North Italian states will have access to Landsknecht Pikemen.
    Excellent. While this is a long time after Alexander's Makedonian reforms, there are too many documents recording the use of pikemen in post (Western) Roman warfare.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    At the moment the rosters of the Italian factions have not been completed so I don't have as much information. But Trinacria will be an interesting faction to play. Obviously the first goal will be reunite the Sicilies and overthrow the Angevines from Naples. I have already talked about the Sicilian roster which will have a combination of Italian units, specific Sicilian units, Aragonese units and specific Catalan units.
    Interesting indeed, this is something glossed over in Sicilian history in school, something equal to the US's war of 1812. I feel almost a little embarrassed for not knowing more, lol.

    Also, CSUR, this was the first time I was WOWED by peasant units, no joke. I have all the confidence in the Tsardoms team after seeing the sources they will choose from after that.



    Lastly, Giacomo Colonna:

    Thank you also for the information, you will be repped soon by me. I liked your work in SV as well, and appreciate all of your help for all mods you assist. Come to Palermo in 6 months when I return, Ceres are on me.

  12. #12
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    Now that you put up the pic of the Rhodes infantry with war hammers, it has jogged my memory and I do recall seeing those pics before. I just hope that more than one unit (vanilla) has them, and am glad to hear that is true. I would actually like to see a difference in axes and maces, strategically. But that is something to talk about later on.
    Unfortunately the difference between axes and maces is not possible due to the game engine. As Hrobatos pointed out to me that Med2 engine works in chess system, spearmen beats cavalary, cavalary archers, archers infantry, swordmen spearmen. So essentialy its rock-paper-scissors system, and in that sytem both axe and mace fall in the same category and thus their usage is same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    Excellent. While this is a long time after Alexander's Makedonian reforms, there are too many documents recording the use of pikemen in post (Western) Roman warfare.
    Well the actual proper long pike was only reintroduced by the swiss. Before that various people used long spears like the scottish schiltrom, the italians and the flemish. The swiss used proper pike formations inspired from the ancient warfare manuals and popularised its use. The landsknecths than copied it, then the Spanish started their terciois and it all eventually led to the famous pike and musket age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamertine View Post
    Interesting indeed, this is something glossed over in Sicilian history in school, something equal to the US's war of 1812. I feel almost a little embarrassed for not knowing more, lol.
    That's a bit sad to hear. This is quite a rich period in Sicilian history with lots of events triggered by the Sicilian Vespers.

    And indeed Giacomo is quite an artist with his Italian units I am looking forward just as much as everyone to use them in a campaign of Italian conquest

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