The Stainless Steel Answer Station - ask all questions here - NOT FOR BUG REPORTS!

[k/t]

Now explain to me how this does not make sense but the horseman's guild and even the Weaponsmith guild works - people are better at fighting because they have a guild for weaponsmiths? No, it's a game mechanism and that's all it is.

They're not better at fighting - they have better weapons.

Of course, the weapons would be the same whether a smith would be in a guild or not, but we can pretend a little here. Maybe the guild imposes strict quality standards on its members.

However, who ever heard of a "woodsmen's" guild? What kind of profession was "woodsman"? What did their guild do? Protect their interests and rights to hug trees? That should be removed altogether - not only does it not make sense, but it's absolutely pointless, since the Swordsmiths' Guild gives experience to all units, not just archers. Which is why it should be renamed Weaponsmiths' Guild, or Armourers' Guild, and receive guild points from more units, not just swordsmen, but fewer points for each unit.

The Horse Breeders' Guild provides better horses, but that guild is also inferior to Swordsmiths'.

[FriendoftheDork]

They're not better at fighting - they have better weapons.

Of course, the weapons would be the same whether a smith would be in a guild or not, but we can pretend a little here. Maybe the guild imposes strict quality standards on its members.

However, who ever heard of a "woodsmen's" guild? What kind of profession was "woodsman"? What did their guild do? Protect their interests and rights to hug trees? That should be removed altogether - not only does it not make sense, but it's absolutely pointless, since the Swordsmiths' Guild gives experience to all units, not just archers. Which is why it should be renamed Weaponsmiths' Guild, or Armourers' Guild, and receive guild points from more units, not just swordsmen, but fewer points for each unit.

The Horse Breeders' Guild provides better horses, but that guild is also inferior to Swordsmiths'.

They have increased experience in the game - which makes them better at fighting, better morale etc. You know that.

"Woodsman" might not have been a profession, but ranger was. Those were the forest wardens of medieval England who caught poachers and made sure common people did not cut down the forest to make farmland. In any case in this mod it has been renamed Archers Guild, which sounds better to me.

Now if we're going to have these guilds 100% realistic we'd have to remove all of them. Thieves guilds are a myth, an apart from societies like the Hashsashim, so were the "assassins guild." These are suitable for fantasy RPGs.

Or we can accept that it is an interesting gameplay mechanic, and that guilds offers a chance for players to cultivate certain unit types and achieve an advantage by using it. I like the guilds in M2TW, and unless someone makes a better alternative I'd like to keep them the way they are. As you said, we can pretend a little here.

[Andytheplatypus]

They have increased experience in the game - which makes them better at fighting, better morale etc. You know that.

"Woodsman" might not have been a profession, but ranger was. Those were the forest wardens of medieval England who caught poachers and made sure common people did not cut down the forest to make farmland. In any case in this mod it has been renamed Archers Guild, which sounds better to me.

Now if we're going to have these guilds 100% realistic we'd have to remove all of them. Thieves guilds are a myth, an apart from societies like the Hashsashim, so were the "assassins guild." These are suitable for fantasy RPGs.

Or we can accept that it is an interesting gameplay mechanic, and that guilds offers a chance for players to cultivate certain unit types and achieve an advantage by using it. I like the guilds in M2TW, and unless someone makes a better alternative I'd like to keep them the way they are. As you said, we can pretend a little here.

or we can just make guilds that are actually useful

[FriendoftheDork]

or we can just make guilds that are actually useful

How is getting free exp not useful? In any case, I'm not hearing any suggestions from you.

The mod already makes Merchants guild, Explorers Guild and Masons guild more useful than vanilla by giving better faction bonuses.

[Andytheplatypus]

How is getting free exp not useful? In any case, I'm not hearing any suggestions from you.

The mod already makes Merchants guild, Explorers Guild and Masons guild more useful than vanilla by giving better faction bonuses.

haha im not going to give any suggestions. if I wanted to change it I would change it. its way down the list of things to do

[FriendoftheDork]

haha im not going to give any suggestions. if I wanted to change it I would change it. its way down the list of things to do

Why are you even posting.

[Mr Kriegtooth]

I think guilds are an acceptable suspension of disbelief, and you dont have to assume they are real "guilds" anyway. With signs and stuff

Instead of the "woodsman guild" being thought of as a guild, think of it as a local band of archers who train others in the art of archery. Same with the assassins

Hell, maybe the Assassins have a fight club

[Andytheplatypus]

Why are you even posting.

you demand that others change the mod because you dont like something. you should learn to change it yourself. once you do that release a sub mod. if its good it will be added to 7.0

[napoleonic]

It depends on what is definited as"best".
I think "best" should be all-round,including high availability,great stat,mobility and adaption to different battle situations(for example ap).
So I favor(red for late,blue for early)
heavy cavalry: Lancers(avoid combat with ap) and Sicilio-Norman Knights(exclude Athanatoi as BG)
light cav: hussars(a bit earlier than Stradiots) and Hohuchi(good all-round )
horse archer:Mamluk archers(ap) and Bekh Druzhina(6 attack)
archer:Pesante Archers(so early as a late unit with 6 armor) and Mourtatoi(it has stakes and is so popular)
infantry:Royal Guard(the strongest ap infantry) and Croat Axeman(strange,but 7 ap is too strong to be ignored,also cheap,light and easy to get)
special:Naffatun and Constable of Jerusalem

there is no AP attack in Real Combat.

[flyingcat]

there is no AP attack in Real Combat.

Oh,is it,at least in the game?
You could try to use Croat Axeman to fight with Athanatoi,and the result is great.
While in reality,some weapons could pierce armor more easily,which is reflected in game as"ap".

How is getting free exp not useful? In any case, I'm not hearing any suggestions from you.

The mod already makes Merchants guild, Explorers Guild and Masons guild more useful than vanilla by giving better faction bonuses.

It's really hard to design something more balanced because people's opinions differ and large quantity of test is required.

While for Woodsmen and Mason,I remember there're two buildings called"Logging Camp" and "StoneMason's hut",which are quite useless for most factions.Perhaps there should be some relationship between them,or some more-developed buildings like those in submod MSC.

Or we could just change those guilds into some regional specific wonders/buildings which could be more historically authentic.Like Armor in Milan,Merchant in Venice or so.
Hmm,and they offer some faction bonuses.

[napoleonic]

Oh,is it,at least in the game?
You could try to use Croat Axeman to fight with Athanatoi,and the result is great.
While in reality,some weapons could pierce armor more easily,which is reflected in game as"ap".

there is no AP in Real Combat, Point Blank said it himself, and if you look at the RC2.0 guide for example you can see all the stats system designed to be balanced without resorting to AP trick.

about croat axemen it's more likely the bonus came from 'bonus fighting cavalry' which can give such unit +8 attack against cavalry than AP trait.

[flyingcat]

there is no AP in Real Combat, Point Blank said it himself, and if you look at the RC2.0 guide for example you can see all the stats system designed to be balanced without resorting to AP trick.

about croat axemen it's more likely the bonus came from 'bonus fighting cavalry' which can give such unit +8 attack against cavalry than AP trait.

Hmm..?
I just can't believe it,because units with ap have such a superiority over no-ap units in so much game experience.

[napoleonic]

Hmm..?
I just can't believe it,because units with ap have such a superiority over no-ap units in so much game experience.

you are right, sorry

there's AP melee weapons, it's just there's no AP longbowmen

sorry

[flyingcat]

you are right, sorry

there's AP melee weapons, it's just there's no AP longbowmen

sorry

Yeah,AP longbowmen are too overpowered...Mamluk Archers has ap so it is suitable to combat.

Anyway,we might now move on to the guilds

[FriendoftheDork]

you demand that others change the mod because you don't like something. you should learn to change it yourself. once you do that release a sub mod. if its good it will be added to 7.0

I haven't demanded anything. I pointed out the Archery guild being bugged or as a mod feature having misleading text, as it says nothing about only a few special kinds of archers getting the bonus.

Then I asked for help how to mod it myself - which I received hints about from k/t and flyingcat. I can change it in my own game, but I'm not sure if changing all the unit classes can have unforeseen effects, so I tried to find a way to make the guild include skirmisher class units, which does not seem possible.

After that there is a separate discussion about guilds in general where some seem to claim that the guild isn't realistic... and my counter argument that none of them are.

You actually seemed to agree with me before you make random comments about "guilds should be useful" without giving any valuable feedback on how or in what way.

[k/t]

"They have increased experience in the game - which makes them better at fighting, better morale etc. You know that. "

Yes, but that experience is supposed to represent higher quality weapons in this case.

The Archers' Guild could be renamed the Bowyers' Guild. Or the Bowyers, Fletchers and Arrowsmiths' Guild. Still, its bonus needs to be reworked, since the Swordsmiths' Guild is better by far.

Changing unit classes will cause the Battle AI to use some of the units differently than intended.

[thebizkit]

I don't know if this has been asked before and after looking at the first half dozen pages I could not find anything on this, but my question is on siege battle and cavalry formations/charge/path-finding.

1. Siege Battles- I had 4 units of Levy Archers on a castle wall refuse to fire on incoming siege towers manually, until I switched it to fire at will mode. Don't understand why they would not just do what I say, it would show the bow icon to signal that they are going to fire but then they take forever and at times I thought they were stuck on their pull back bow animation, until one would fire then a small trickle would follow after that. Another weird thing that I don't get is how is it that I was able to set a siege tower on fire with 2 archer units on a wooden castle but could not set a siege tower on fire with 4 units on a stone castle map?

2. Cavalry- Do early era units like Miles Cav intentionally move in unorganized formations at times? Getting them to charge with their spears ready is a hassle but I chuck that up to the game engine but when I try to maneuver my cav from one spot to another at times I will have 2-3 stragglers just staying put which screws over any chance of having a legit charge, or if those 2-3 units engage in a battle the rest of the cav kinda just stands around. I try forming them up in a nice formation, THEN charge them but again sometimes they will charge in a weird trickle formation, some would run, some would just walk.

Could these all be intentional things that the mod does? I'm not sure and hopefully you guys can help me out with any answers, I appreciate it.

[Andytheplatypus]

1. yes it is a known problem for all missile units on walls.

2. try setting your cavalry in defensive mode when they move around. then turn it off right as you charge. helps keep them in formation

[thebizkit]

1. yes it is a known problem for all missile units on walls.

2. try setting your cavalry in defensive mode when they move around. then turn it off right as you charge. helps keep them in formation

Ah that's unfortunate about the Archers but I will try the CAV advice and see if it works.

Thanks for the Answers!

[FriendoftheDork]

"They have increased experience in the game - which makes them better at fighting, better morale etc. You know that. "

Yes, but that experience is supposed to represent higher quality weapons in this case.

The Archers' Guild could be renamed the Bowyers' Guild. Or the Bowyers, Fletchers and Arrowsmiths' Guild. Still, its bonus needs to be reworked, since the Swordsmiths' Guild is better by far.

Changing unit classes will cause the Battle AI to use some of the units differently than intended.

My point was, if you (one) can justify quality weapons represented by experience, then you can represent the advantages of an archer's guild/woodsmens guild/bowyers guild/robin hood guild by experience to archers too.

As for balance, that is a good point. Before at least Swordsmiths guild gave a different kind of bonus, meaning having both (all 3) kinds were useful, but increasing attack values itself is supposedly broken in RC?

A possible fix could be to increase the honor from the other two guilds that specializes in one kind of unit - +2 xp/+3 xp/ +3xp and +2xp global. Or something like that. Having units starting at 2 or 3 xp means it will take less time and kills to each higher levels of xp, right?

On the other hand, in my experience and another poster here getting multiple Swordsmith's guilds seems unlikely hard, so that might be a game feature of the mod to balance them.

I even changed it so that training infantry gives +5 guild points rather than +1 guild point, and my fortress where im building all the barracks and armories, and pumping out all the swordsmen I can, still won't offer me level 1 Swordsmith's guild.