Peloponnesian war. Who would you have sided with?

**CatoTheYounger** · November 05, 2012, 06:23 AM

Athens and the Delian League fought a brutaly ugly and bloody Greek civil war With Sparta and the Peloponnesian League. People seem to prefer one power over the other but both have their contradictions against their stereotypes. Athens was know for culture and sophistication yet they had a powerfull millitary and often used military force or coercian on smaller citys to force them into to a subserviant role in their Alliance. And Sparta is know for brutal militaristic society yet they beleived in Greek autonomy and often defended the weaker city states when in need. They also didn't beleive in expanding outside Greece and wontan conquest. Athens gave us theater philosophy and ideas about democracy and self rule free of kings and dictators.

But how about this legendary conflict. Who would you have thrown in your lot with?

**Zom** · November 05, 2012, 06:35 AM

Athens contributed so much to civilization I don't see it as any contest at all.

**CatoTheYounger** · November 05, 2012, 06:53 AM

Im not sure its a slam dunk for me. Athens started missapropriating allied money and using it on their own public works in Athens. Thats how they built all those wonderfull complexes. They even relocated the alllied treaury from the island of Delos to Athens. I doubt their allies apreciated this. When their concils questioned this Pericles basicly said Athens was the leader and all powerfull and they could do what they wanted. And they unwisely started the war perhaps trying to clear away their last powerfull rival.

Sparta only wanted acknowledgemnt that they were in charge of their league. They were arogant but seemed to respect each city states place in the Alliance. As long as they were in charge of cource. Where as Athens started looking to swallow up the whole of Greece as they got richer and fatter. Lots of issues.

**General Sultan V** · November 05, 2012, 06:56 AM

Athenai.

**|Sith|Galvanized Iron** · November 05, 2012, 09:41 AM

Sparta becuase they were honest with what they were. Athens is a wolf in sheep's clothing with their imperialistic ambitions hidden behind a mask of civilization, which I find much more distasteful than the straightforward jingoism of Sparta.

**Velico** · November 05, 2012, 12:05 PM

Sparta. Thucydides saw both sides of it personally, and his reflections on the entire war have so much disdain for what Athens had become. The Mytilenean Revolt alone is such a tragic incident to a former ally of Athens. Cleon was such a warmonger and caught the ears of a lot of Athenian citizens, promoting imperial ambitions and foreign servitude. It really was a dark time for Athens, and without the Peloponnesian War, who's to know they wouldn't have curbed those ambitions?

But that's getting into the realm of historical guesswork, something I'm mainly averse to. Athens was ruling in a tyrannical fashion, and they brought the war upon themselves. They took more credit for the Persian Wars, and flaunted it about like they were sitting upon a high pedestal. I'm just happy they decided to involve Sicily into the war and fail miserably in that campaign.

By the end of the 5th century, the Golden Age for Greece was already over. Most of what they innovated that we now cherish had already come into existence. Democracy had been in place for around 270 years, philosophy had been in full swing since Socrates (470-399 BCE), and theatre begun c. 550 BCE and went well after the war.

**Visarion** · November 05, 2012, 12:09 PM

Sparta of course...

**Stath's** · November 05, 2012, 06:46 PM

If Athens had won, the world might be so different.....

Athens, because things are now ****** up...

And they were smarter. If it wasn't this cur Alkiviades and that damned Syracusean expedition, i am sure they would have won.

Spartans were soooo dumb. I mean, who fights naked?

**CatoTheYounger** · November 05, 2012, 08:15 PM

Haha. They did not all fight naked. Only the ones wanting to prove they were fearless. Gauls did that too.

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Velico you are well read on the subject. And i like your views.

**Stath's** · November 05, 2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by CatoTheYounger

Haha. They did not all fight naked. Only the ones wanting to prove they were fearless. Gauls did that too.

Unquestionable evidence....

Also, check out the music. Magnifique!

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Originally Posted by |Sith|Galvanized Iron

Sparta becuase they were honest with what they were. Athens is a wolf in sheep's clothing with their imperialistic ambitions hidden behind a mask of civilization, which I find much more distasteful than the straightforward jingoism of Sparta.

Originally Posted by Velico

Sparta. Thucydides saw both sides of it personally, and his reflections on the entire war have so much disdain for what Athens had become. The Mytilenean Revolt alone is such a tragic incident to a former ally of Athens. Cleon was such a warmonger and caught the ears of a lot of Athenian citizens, promoting imperial ambitions and foreign servitude. It really was a dark time for Athens, and without the Peloponnesian War, who's to know they wouldn't have curbed those ambitions?

But that's getting into the realm of historical guesswork, something I'm mainly averse to. Athens was ruling in a tyrannical fashion, and they brought the war upon themselves. They took more credit for the Persian Wars, and flaunted it about like they were sitting upon a high pedestal. I'm just happy they decided to involve Sicily into the war and fail miserably in that campaign.

By the end of the 5th century, the Golden Age for Greece was already over. Most of what they innovated that we now cherish had already come into existence. Democracy had been in place for around 270 years, philosophy had been in full swing since Socrates (470-399 BCE), and theatre begun c. 550 BCE and went well after the war.

You are hitting Athens with truths, but keep in mind what Sparte was..

Athens was imperialistic ok, but every city-state with that kind of power would have been evolved that way.

Athens born so many things beyond description.

Sparte born legendary warriors.

Between those two, i would choose Athens. They could make world a better place, even with many sacrifices from other cities.

**Velico** · November 05, 2012, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by hannibalbarca13

You are hitting Athens with truths, but keep in mind what Sparte was..

Athens was imperialistic ok, but every city-state with that kind of power would have been evolved that way.

Athens born so many things beyond description.

Sparte born legendary warriors.

Between those two, i would choose Athens. They could make world a better place, even with many sacrifices from other cities.

My point was that Athens had already innovated what we cherish today, and after the war still contributed to philosophy, arts, and refinements of government structure. The war was not a deciding factor in any of those, as they had already been around. So the position that you take Athens on those premises is moot. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your justification for siding with Athens is irrelevant to the actual conduct of the war.

**Pyrrhus the Molossian** · November 05, 2012, 11:20 PM

Its quite funny how Athens is idealized. You do know in Sparta women had more rights than Athenian women? Overall Spartan laws hugely surprassed anything the Athenians had. Also trying to play it off as a defensive war is stupid. Thr Athrnians were blatantly empire building. Sparta for numerous reasons.

**Sertorio** · November 06, 2012, 11:59 AM

I will side with Athens for a few reasons only. The Spartan system though efective was stagnant. It was unable to adapt to empire or to the influence it carried post Peloponnesian war.
Sparta was built on slave labour. For each Spartan warrior how many helots were required ?
Even if Sparta was superior on land it required Persian funds to wage the naval warfare with Athens.
Not that i am not sympathetic with Sparta but Spartan hegemony didn't brought great benefits to the Greeks.
I agree with most that was written about Athens but, had they won the benefits might have been greater in the long run.
This is highly conjectural though.

**Pyrrhus the Molossian** · November 06, 2012, 12:44 PM

Actually as a population percenatage Athens had more slaves by number and percent. The subject proples of Sparta were more forced sharecroppers.

**|Sith|Galvanized Iron** · November 06, 2012, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by hannibalbarca13

Athens born so many things beyond description.

Sure, but they also had a tendency of killing their greatest minds, take poor Socrates for example.

**Stath's** · November 06, 2012, 06:09 PM

He was 70, 80... Meh, he would die eventually.

**naq** · November 06, 2012, 07:31 PM

Regardless of how bad Athens had become, Sparta was still the most fascistic reactionistic guy out there.

**Pyrrhus the Molossian** · November 06, 2012, 07:34 PM

Well no not really. They were actually usually isolationist. Athens sparked most of thr numerous conflicts.!

**CatoTheYounger** · November 06, 2012, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by hannibalbarca13

He was 70, 80... Meh, he would die eventually.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH! for real? keep this guy away from your grandparents!

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Yeah Sparta actualy only Greek state that didn't join Alexander on his crusade. They didn't beleive in leaving Greece to conquer foreign lands. The only got involved in wars to maintain bower balances in Greece usualy. Yeah they wanted to be the top city state but they wanted each City State to be free of tyrants and to rule itself..only recognize Sparta as top dog. Athens wanted to make all City States Vassels sending endless tribute to their war macnine and building projects. Wether they won wars or not their art theater and Philosophy could still be contributed so that was not at risk.

**Durnaug** · November 07, 2012, 08:08 PM

Some experts claim that Sparta "discovered" democracy before Athens - it did have an assembly of citizens who voted on matters of state long before Athens. The strange thing about the Spartan setup was all the constraints that severely restricted the power of this Assembly, i.e. 2 Kings, the Ephors, the Gersousia(spelling?). Each of these state institutions had powers and responsibilities that checked each other. Checks and balances. Which is why Sparta is the inspiration for US democracy, not Athens