Freedom of press in Greece

[Odenat]

It seems that the corrupt Greek elite is attacking the few remaining working institution of the country. Not only the Greek democracy is in a very difficult position with Nazis attacking immigrants an the streets, but the journalists are under attack from the government.

The Greek state TV interrupted broadcasts on Tuesday morning.

What do you think? Will it be possible for Greece to come out of crisis with its democracy intact or will we see another dictatorship in Europe at 21th century ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ge-suspensions
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...c-lagarde-list
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gree...freedom-greece
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/30/bu...tml?hpt=ieu_c2

[Braindead Colonel]

Case 1:

More than 2 years ago the Greek minister of finance was given a list of Swiss bank accounts (and the names of the account holders) by the then French minister of economics (and current Head of the IMF) Christine Lagarde. The idea was to check which of these contained illegally obtained funds and/or had avoided taxation. Greece could tax the accounts, and reduce its debt.

The result: Two ministers of finance later, and no action has been taken, while the list has been lost in the meantime (Original minister says he gave it to his "office", doesn't know what happened to it, won't say who he gave it to)

A reporter gets his hands on a copy of the list, publishes it, and...

In a shocking affront to democracy and freedom of speech, Greek prosecutors have ordered the immediate arrest of journalist Kostas Vaxevanis, according to reports by various media outlets and blogs in Greece. This comes after the publication of the so-called "Lagarde List," containing the names of 1,991 Greeks with Swiss bank accounts, in Hot Doc, a weekly newsmagazine published by Vaxenis.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae...b_2030940.html


The minister that "lost" the list, and the reporter that published it


Case 2:

The guardian had reported on a case of torture of protesters by the Greek police

Fifteen anti-fascist protesters arrested in Athens during a clash with supporters of the neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn have said they were tortured in the Attica General Police Directorate (GADA) – the Athens equivalent of Scotland Yard – and subjected to what their lawyer describes as an Abu Ghraib-style humiliation.
...
Some said they were burned on the arms with a cigarette lighter, and they said police officers videoed them on their mobile phones and threatened to post the pictures on the internet and give their home addresses to Golden Dawn, which has a track record of political violence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...torture-police

The Greek minister claimed these were false accusations, threatened to sue the guardian.
Turns out though they probably were tortured after all, according to forensic findings.
Two reporters on the Government owned TV station NET commented on the fact and...

On October 29, 2012, two journalists, Kostas Arvanitis and Marilena Katsimi, were fired by the Greek Public Television (ERT) after analyzing claims by British newspaper The Guardian of police torture of Greek anti-fascist protesters in Athens, and criticizing the Greek Minister of Public Order.

M. Katsimi: And here are the forensic findings for the 15 arrested people that The Guardian was writing about. For this case [Minister of Public Order] Mr. Dendias wanted to sue The Guardian
Mr. Arvanitis: Didn’t he?
M. Katsimi: He didn’t, because the findings show that it is indeed a felony.
Mr. Arvanitis: Is he going to resign now?
M. Katsimi: I do not think so. […]
Mr. Arvanitis: And now what? Will he say he is sorry?
M. Katsimi: I do not know ….
Mr. Arvanitis: Wow… that’s difficult for Mr. Dendias. And he is from the same place as you, from Corfu.
M. Katsimi: And he is a serious man, I have to say.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/1...zing-minister/

The journalists' union of NET have declared a strike in response to what they consider a blatant act of censorship.

The union warned that if the suspension was not rescinded immediately "employees will proceed with continuous 24-hour strikes and other actions to preserve the prestige of ERT … which the management is undermining".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ge-suspensions

http://euobserver.com/social/118054



My take on the matter:

Most (if not all) of the privately owned TV stations in Greece are horribly biased, and believe it or not the government station NET was quite an objective source of news. The government must have decided to change that. Thankfully we still have the internet, but the vast majority of Greeks depend on TV news for their daily information.

As for the list of Swiss Bank accounts, no doubt the politicians in power are afraid of any investigation of the matter, since some of that money must be a result of government corruption, and the trail of the funds would lead back to the corrupt government officials who are still in power in Greece.

[Akrotatos]

Though this is a really serious issue i am getting tired of seeing Greece-related threads all over this subforum. Merge them all in a Greek giga-thread and be done with it, aren't there any other countries to discuss about?

[Stavroforos]

It is definitely concerning, but all Greeks know that the main media outlets here each sell their own mainstream party line. There is no actual honest journalism in Greece in any case.

[Erebus Pasha]

Threads merged.

[Thorn777]

Great post BC. And its a problematic issue all over. Even the treaties Germany, UK, and France "forced" out of Switzerland etc are actually just laughable propaganda. The criminals(thats what they are) hiding money from the taxman there still have all the ops. For their accountants and lawyers it just means different ways.

And people like Kostas Vaxevanis and a variety of others who got burned this way are modern day hero's. Shame they will be forgotten quick while prolly ruining their careers and risking jailtime.

Now why is all this? I see intent. And where I see intent, I see conspiracy. Down with the real criminals.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

What's funny is that right now, we've got a supposedly democratic government acting like a fascist regime (where else in an EU country a tv program would have been blocked because the reporters dared criticize the Minister of Public Order?!) claiming that it's the last wall against extremism (communists, fascists, anarchists).

[alhoon]

Case 1:

More than 2 years ago the Greek minister of finance was given a list of Swiss bank accounts (and the names of the account holders) by the then French minister of economics (and current Head of the IMF) Christine Lagarde. The idea was to check which of these contained illegally obtained funds and/or had avoided taxation. Greece could tax the accounts, and reduce its debt.

The result: Two ministers of finance later, and no action has been taken, while the list has been lost in the meantime (Original minister says he gave it to his "office", doesn't know what happened to it, won't say who he gave it to)

Can't even start with that, but I will try:
It's increadibly stupid to claim "Eh, you know, I left the list in my office. Reaaallyyyy! I just ... kinda forgot to check it. THE NEXT GUY LOST IT!"
and the next guy saying "No, seriously! I never found that list! I promise!"

It's like kindengarden excuses:
"Why manolaki you didn't do your homework?"
"My cat ate it!"


It's also foolish from Lagarde herself. I mean, seriously woman? Get a grip on reality! The guy you turned the CD to, was 99% in the freaking list! The next guy that took over was 99.99% in the list! What did you expect?
"Hey mister! I'm a private detective hired by your wife.
Here's an envelop with photos of you cheating on your wife. Can you pass it to her? Thanks!"


Anyway, on the censorship thing:
The journalist with the Lagarde list won't be prosecuted further IMO. That was all, they won't dare convict a guy for "giving out personal records" when those records are of millionaires that laugh with our plight as they play lobster wars in Myconos.

The other thing in NET though... that's beyond belief! I mean WTF!?!?! Do the ministers even HAVE the power to request the TV station to kick out journalists for that?

[YukonTrooper]

No doubt the government is desperate to keep that list non-existent. Can you imagine the response by Greeks who are suffering austerity at the hands of officials who are stealing Greek money and hiding it in foreign accounts? Uprising material right there. Greek officials swinging from olive trees and what not.

[Odenat]

But what i don't really understand is if the things went worser in the last 2-3 years? The previous governments acted likewise against the press? Then i have a difficulty understanding why the EU is not doing anything about it.

The journalists can easily apply to EU courts which are supposed to overrule in these cases. Even the Turkish government (which is not a part of EU) have to apply the final EU court decision as much as they hate it We are very happy of this because even a farmer who lives at Eastern border have a way to defend his rights against the state.

[neoptolemos]

Case 1:

More than 2 years ago the Greek minister of finance was given a list of Swiss bank accounts (and the names of the account holders) by the then French minister of economics (and current Head of the IMF) Christine Lagarde. The idea was to check which of these contained illegally obtained funds and/or had avoided taxation. Greece could tax the accounts, and reduce its debt.

The result: Two ministers of finance later, and no action has been taken, while the list has been lost in the meantime (Original minister says he gave it to his "office", doesn't know what happened to it, won't say who he gave it to)

A reporter gets his hands on a copy of the list, publishes it, and...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae...b_2030940.html


The minister that "lost" the list, and the reporter that published it


Case 2:

The guardian had reported on a case of torture of protesters by the Greek police

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...torture-police

The Greek minister claimed these were false accusations, threatened to sue the guardian.
Turns out though they probably were tortured after all, according to forensic findings.
Two reporters on the Government owned TV station NET commented on the fact and...


http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/1...zing-minister/

The journalists' union of NET have declared a strike in response to what they consider a blatant act of censorship.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ge-suspensions

http://euobserver.com/social/118054



My take on the matter:

Most (if not all) of the privately owned TV stations in Greece are horribly biased, and believe it or not the government station NET was quite an objective source of news. The government must have decided to change that. Thankfully we still have the internet, but the vast majority of Greeks depend on TV news for their daily information.

As for the list of Swiss Bank accounts, no doubt the politicians in power are afraid of any investigation of the matter, since some of that money must be a result of government corruption, and the trail of the funds would lead back to the corrupt government officials who are still in power in Greece.

Kudos my friend for the post and i don't think that anyone can add something to that.

[Condottiere 40K]

Let's be honest here, the Greeks should clean house.

It's as if they wanted some form of outside intervention, besides bailouts. A UN peace-keeping mission to kick out their democratically elected representatives and impose a technocratic regime?

[alhoon]

The previous governments acted likewise against the press? Then i have a difficulty understanding why the EU is not doing anything about it.

This case of censorship with journalists fired for doing their job is nearly unheard of. Can't remember any other case.
The other journalist, with the Lagarde list, that was harassed... well, technically he published personal information so he may (or may not) get a fine. By harassing him and sending him over the police station in handcuffs, all the state managed to do is make his story (and the list) draw more attention world-wide while he wasn't intimidated.
I expect to see suggestions from parties for him to become an MP in the future. If we see him as a canditate, then he was already corrupt and he's cashing on his fame. If not, then he was trying to serve truth and the public. Not many journalists do that.

The journalists can easily apply to EU courts which are supposed to overrule in these cases.

I don't think they'll have to. The Greek courts will 99% validate them. It's the MP that will have the problem once his immunity ends, because he will probably be sued. Asking for journalists to be punished is an abuse of office.

It's as if they wanted some form of outside intervention, besides bailouts. A UN peace-keeping mission to kick out their democratically elected representatives and impose a technocratic regime?

So... armed invasion and occupation? Seriously?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Let's be honest here, the Greeks should clean house.

It's as if they wanted some form of outside intervention, besides bailouts. A UN peace-keeping mission to kick out their democratically elected representatives and impose a technocratic regime?

Statistics have shown that the majority of the adults 18-40 years old if I remember correctly voted for SYRIZA, whereas ND and PASOK were voted by the old people. These were those who were terrorized by the media and the governing parties, with claims such as 'if you don't vote for us we'll leave the euro and you won't get your pension or medicine'. It isn't really about 'democracy'. People were threatened by the parties with various fake arguments. (people can't get their medicine anyway).

[Stavroforos]

I voted for ND

[Hobbes]

Family traditions?

[Stavroforos]

PASOK, lol. Parents voted for Syriza

[Hobbes]

It's the new PASOK!

[Manuel I Komnenos]

PASOK, lol. Parents voted for Syriza

It's good that someone over here believes Venizelos can get us out of this mess I guess
The very same person who "lost" the Lagarde list and handed several billions to an Arabian entrepreneur for constructing the submarines we still haven't received.

[Stavroforos]

It's good that someone over here believes Venizelos can get us out of this mess I guess
The very same person who "lost" the Lagarde list and handed several billions to an Arabian entrepreneur for constructing the submarines we still haven't received.

Well my parents were traditional PASOK supporters, but they voted Syriza last election, and I voted ND though I'd voted PASOK before. I don't see any viable alternative being offered, so sometimes you simply have to stick with the devil you know.