On spears and pikes

[DrDragun]

I am having a very hard time trying to make myself like spearmen. I WANT to like them, I have always liked hoplites, the Spartan 300, and pike hedges. I am moderately experienced at this game and have won 5 campaigns on VH/VH and many on H/VH or H/H.

Spearmen have joke stats. Awful attack. I know their strength is in their bonuses which are often hidden. Of course they get passive attack vs cavalry (+4 attack iirc). I believe that they also use any charging enemy's charge bonus against them, is that true? What exact bonsuses does Schiltrom formation grant?

Overall I am underwhelmed with their performance in both siege and field fighting. At the gates, they aren't going to use their anti-charge ability very much. On the field, I find they simply get outmaneuvered by cavalry. Once cavalry have made contact with my lines it's tough to get enough exposure for the spearmen to charge between the gaps and get into fighting the cavalry.

Is there anyone here who loves spears and pikes? How do you usually use them? They have the coolest names (Vault Wardens, COME ON) and appearance but I just don't feel I'm getting my money's worth.

[Incomitatus]

I am having a very hard time trying to make myself like spearmen. I WANT to like them, I have always liked hoplites, the Spartan 300, and pike hedges. I am moderately experienced at this game and have won 5 campaigns on VH/VH and many on H/VH or H/H.

Spearmen have joke stats. Awful attack. I know their strength is in their bonuses which are often hidden. Of course they get passive +4 attack vs cavalry. I believe that they also use any charging enemy's charge bonus against them, is that true? What exact bonsuses does Schiltrom formation grant?

Overall I am underwhelmed with their performance in both siege and field fighting. At the gates, they aren't going to use their anti-charge ability very much. On the field, I find they simply get outmaneuvered by cavalry. Once cavalry have made contact with my lines it's tough to get enough exposure for the spearmen to charge between the gaps and get into fighting the cavalry.

Is there anyone here who loves spears and pikes? How do you usually use them? They have the coolest names (Vault Wardens, COME ON) and appearance but I just don't feel I'm getting my money's worth.

Well, to start with spears and pikes are very different units from each other. I love them both, but one has to appreciate their limitations.

Let's start with spears:

Spears that are stationary more or less negate the effects of a cavalry charge against them, provided the cavalry charges the front. So spears make a good front line. They also get attack bonuses against cavalry, but they aren't all +4. They can vary by any multiple of 2 from 2-12. Most are +4, but I'd have to check the EDU to see if they all are. I'm pretty sure there are a few that are +6.

What all spears do have, though, is a penalty against infantry. Kind of. Mostly against swordsmen, and as best as I can tell this is all due to the animations in M2:TW (it was a programmed defense penalty of -4 in RTW, but things change...).

Fundamentally, spears are defensive units that should be used to screen units that are vulnerable to cavalry charges (pretty much all of them, except pikes) from cavalry. Many times, but not always, they also have good enough defense stats that they can hold out a long time against infantry. It's not ideal to use them that way, but it does mean you can tire the enemy out and then hit them with fresh sword or axemen, or with a cavalry charge into a flank or rear.

If you played RTW, Hoplites weren't actually 'seen' by the game engine as Spearmen, but as heavy infantry. The line in the EDU that specified their weapon made sure of that... they did get a -1 attack penalty against other infantry, though. But clearly that's much less of a disadvantage than 'real' spearmen get.

In conclusion, don't think 'hoplite', think 'defensive line'.

Pikes:

Pikes are a mixed bag. I like them, but they take some getting used to. They should never be in 'Guard' mode unless about to receive a cavalry charge. They work best when they are allowed to push into the enemy and move forward like the meatgrinder they are meant to be, but this means they have to be supported on the flanks. So long as they don't get flanked, or shot at, their casualties should be quite light relative to the kills they make.

Unlike spears, pikes are both a good defensive and offensive unit, but they have even worse penalties in the woods or on broken ground. Treat them like a Macedonian phalanx (that's what they are, after all). They can punch through just about anything, but if you let them get flanked, they crumble. They can also be overwhelmed by sheer mass of enemies. They tend to be good at holding a city street, for instance, but if the enemy piles enough soldiers at them, they will get past the pikes eventually and then the pikemen aren't very well suited to defending against attacks, usually. So always keep a heavy infantry unit around to throw into the fray with them.

Also, don't confuse pikes with halberd units, who also have the same 'Spearwall' formation option.

And the schiltrom prevents your unit from being flanked, and provides some defense bonuses (but attack penalties) especially against cavalry. I rarely use it, since you should try to keep your men from being in a position where they can be surrounded, but sometimes they come in handy on the flanks.

[Eönwë]

So how are Halberds supposed to be used? And with Halberds I mean all units with have the spearwall formation but aren't pikemen
Switching the spearwall formation off helps them I read somewhere?

[DrDragun]

Thanks for the reply. So let me ask you this. For a general-purpose main-contact line for the Dwarves. Would your prefer pure axemen, pure vaultwardens, or vaultwardens flanked by axes (I am picking heavy infantry vs pikes of similar cost)?

With my play style I have always composed my armies of Line 1: Fodder infantry, Line 2: Heavy damage infantry (axe and sword). There is no real place in there for high-tier spears. They could sit with the fodder infantry I guess and serve the function of tanking/holding lines but I hate seeing them shot by archers. Better to just use fodder.

[DrDragun]

So how are Halberds supposed to be used? And with Halberds I mean all units with have the spearwall formation but aren't pikemen
Switching the spearwall formation off helps them I read somewhere?

Obviously they move fast with it off. I believe turning it on gives them more "mass" and thus they get pushed less when lines clash and they hold their position against cavalry penetration.

I actually use halberds for city defense a lot. They are very strong in gate/gap defense and can produce kills well. I never felt the same about spearmen. Spears take a long time to kill but they don't kill many enemies in return. During city/gate fighting I like halberds better than regular heavy infantry, but spears worse.

City defense is a totally different game which is biased toward high quality units because of the free upkeep system. I will typically take 2 halberd units to hold the gate, 2 damage-oriented heavy infantry for wall defense (2-hander swordsmen or axes, you gotta kill enemies as fast as they come up the ladders and not let them pile up), and archers/cats to fill.

[Incomitatus]

So how are Halberds supposed to be used? And with Halberds I mean all units with have the spearwall formation but aren't pikemen
Switching the spearwall formation off helps them I read somewhere?

For that question, I will actually direct you to the videos in this thread.

I really wish these guys had continued with this series , but all they covered was the use of halberd units, in two different videos, one against infantry and one against cavalry.

Thanks for the reply. So let me ask you this. For a general-purpose main-contact line for the Dwarves. Would your prefer pure axemen, pure vaultwardens, or vaultwardens flanked by axes (I am picking heavy infantry vs pikes of similar cost)?

Oh, a mix, to be sure. I'd have to run tests to come up with the best ratio and tactics. My experience with the Dwarves is probably the least of the Good factions. I try to avoid field battles with them ever since suffering the worst defeat I've ever experienced in a Total War game. I rarely lose battles, so when my experienced and expensive field army with a great General got caught between two Gundabad full stacks, on a hillside so that one of the enemy armies was above me... and I got wiped out to the man...er... dwarf (admittedly, Dwarves take a long time to kill, so it was a two hour battle [I don't play with the timer])... it was traumatic .

I actually use halberds for city defense a lot. They are very strong in gate/gap defense and can produce kills well. I never felt the same about spearmen. Spears take a long time to kill but they don't kill many enemies in return. During city/gate fighting I like halberds better than regular heavy infantry, but spears worse.

City defense is a totally different game which is biased toward high quality units because of the free upkeep system. I will typically take 2 halberd units to hold the gate, 2 damage-oriented heavy infantry for wall defense (2-hander swordsmen or axes, you gotta kill enemies as fast as they come up the ladders and not let them pile up), and archers/cats to fill.

Agreed on spears in city defence. It's rare that cavalry can get a good charge in a city, so they aren't as essential.

On the walls, I'd actually suggest single-handed swordsmen are better than two-handers, and better than axemen unless you really need the AP the axemen provide. It's an animation speed thing. The 1-handed swordsmen attack faster so they get more attacks per unit time, more time the enemy spends staggered = higher kill ratios... unless the enemy is heavily armoured, of course, but the staggering effect still counts for a lot on the walls. This was pointed out to me long ago when I asked the M2:TW forum what the point of the Norse Swordsmen were the Teutonic Campaign since Huscarls and Viking Raiders seemed like better deals. I was corrected, re: the animation effects. Any unit with the fast_swordsman (or however it's tagged, I don't know that off the top of my head) will perform a little better than a pure stat comparison would suggest, especially on walls.

[DrDragun]

Oh, a mix, to be sure. I'd have to run tests to come up with the best ratio and tactics. My experience with the Dwarves is probably the least of the Good factions. I try to avoid field battles with them ever since suffering the worst defeat I've ever experienced in a Total War game. I rarely lose battles, so when my experienced and expensive field army with a great General got caught between two Gundabad full stacks, on a hillside so that one of the enemy armies was above me... and I got wiped out to the man...er... dwarf (admittedly, Dwarves take a long time to kill, so it was a two hour battle [I don't play with the timer])... it was traumatic .

Mmmkay, how about Uruks/Uruk Pikes? Or Silvan Heavy Spears/Swords?

I guess I don't understand the advantage of a high end purely "defensive unit". It seems cannon fodder does the same job, and I don't have to be as stressed about losses from archers or friendly fire. The purpose is to hold the line for a time while you cavalry bomb the enemy artillery then charge their flanks. Or make contact with the Line 1 defensive troops, then fill the gaps with heavy damage units like swordmasters once the enemies are in bad formation. I don't really like using 800 gold Silvan Heavy Spears to absorb front-line losses and then not be able to retrain them.

Even for the sole purpose of gate fighting, halberds seem better than pikes when you have the choice (Dwarves, etc).

On the walls, I'd actually suggest single-handed swordsmen are better than two-handers, and better than axemen unless you really need the AP the axemen provide. It's an animation speed thing. The 1-handed swordsmen attack faster so they get more attacks per unit time, more time the enemy spends staggered = higher kill ratios... unless the enemy is heavily armoured, of course, but the staggering effect still counts for a lot on the walls. This was pointed out to me long ago when I asked the M2:TW forum what the point of the Norse Swordsmen were the Teutonic Campaign since Huscarls and Viking Raiders seemed like better deals. I was corrected, re: the animation effects. Any unit with the fast_swordsman (or however it's tagged, I don't know that off the top of my head) will perform a little better than a pure stat comparison would suggest, especially on walls.

That's very interesting. This game relies on a lot of empirical testing of the combat system lol.

[Incomitatus]

Mmmkay, how about Uruks/Uruk Pikes? Or Silvan Heavy Spears/Swords?

I guess I don't understand the advantage of a high end purely "defensive unit". It seems cannon fodder does the same job, and I don't have to be as stressed about losses from archers or friendly fire. The purpose is to hold the line for a time while you cavalry bomb the enemy artillery then charge their flanks. Or make contact with the Line 1 defensive troops, then fill the gaps with heavy damage units like swordmasters once the enemies are in bad formation. I don't really like using 800 gold Silvan Heavy Spears to absorb front-line losses and then not be able to retrain them.

Even for the sole purpose of gate fighting, halberds seem better than pikes when you have the choice (Dwarves, etc).

See I edited my last post after you posted this.

Well, ideally spears aren't used to absorb front line losses. They just guard against cavalry. If enemy infantry approaches, there should be sword- or axemen behind the spears to rush forward and engage them. At least that's how the Byzantines did it and if it worked for them, I've always felt it to be good enough for me.

Gondor is actually a better example for me to provide. I'll use four units of Gondor Spearmen in my anti-Harad armies (two when fighting Mordor but they have only one purpose: kill Black Numenorians if I find any). Two units stretched really thin right in front of my swordsmen in the center, and then a unit on each flank, in front of my cavalry. They shouldn't ever be fighting infantry, other than other spearmen who might move against the cavalry and then only so long as it takes the cavalry to wheel around the flank and deliver a charge against the engaged spearmen's flank, before returning to the cover of the spears.

(I don't like to keep cavalry unprotected when fighting Harad, because their cavalry are killers if they get to charge!)

As the Silvans... I'd probably take the Heavy Spearmen on campaign just because they're more durable than the lighter spears, and I'd save money on reinforcement/retraining. I'd use the light spears for defensive armies in home territory. But in either case, I wouldn't expect my melee infantry to do much in most battles, because I'd probably have 10-12 units of archers and another 2 cavalry archers! Not much will get to the line and what does should have it's morale in shreds and rout on contact or shortly thereafter.

When I get around to writing my Tactics Guide (currently working on my Strategic Guide) one of the first topics I'm intending to cover is the proper use of spears - and when not to use them. Any faction that has archers that can deploy stakes, for example, can probably get away with only have a couple units of spears in an army, because they should be protecting the entire front from cavalry with the stakes instead... so the only spears as flank defenders.

[DrDragun]

Hmm, I'll give it a whirl again sometime. I've tried something like this in the past, but I think I'm bad a predicting where the enemy cavalry are going to be. Unless I have a huge obvious brick of archers in the back, the AI tends to just do cavalry charges into the infantry after they have already made contact, meaning there is not a clear path for the spears to intercept the cavalry and they have to move through the battle lines to fight them which doesn't work. Then again my last 2 campaigns were Mordor and Dwarves so maybe I'll like spears more when I play more archer-oriented factions again.

[Incomitatus]

Well, if enemy infantry has moved up and gotten close to you and between their cavalry and your line, you can retire your spears and rely on your other infantry. Cavalry can't maintain their charge bonus through troops. So cavalry that moves their their own men to get to yours is pretty much asking to die. You don't need the spears anymore as long as the flanks of the line are guarded.