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Thread: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

  1. #1

    Default [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Hey everybody, so since I joined the official team a little bit ago, I've been working on a little bit of an optional pack for users to install with the rest of the campaign. It attempts to make over all gameplay slower and more strategic, while maintaining some notion of realism. Movement rates have been reduced across the board, cavalry can be used as swift hunters to harass small stacks reinforcing, or to flank in and hit their archers before the battle lines are set. The context camera for infantry is a bit less twitchy, so the user can zoom in and watch some epic battles. Ranged units are less effective at range, and have a bigger chance to miss. So it is VERY important to get some EXPERIENCED archers. Fort walls provide very nice cover with this bigger chance to miss, so sticking some of your valuable troops inside the gates can provide excellent coverage vs archer blobs. Also, flaming arrows have a bigger chance to catch walls on fire. Please NOTE that the new specialized infantry and cavalry aren't part of the stat balances, but will have the movement and accuracy balances applied to them.

    It's a lot to try to test out for just the dev team, so I'd love some help from the community. I will read any and all feedback, even if I don't respond. I can only ask that you guys try to figure out a way to fix an issue (in terms of balancing) from within the game before asking for a stat buff. I'd also like any suggestions as to what else I can do, or whatever really. Just install the .pack into the data folder, and make sure it is underneath every other sekigahara pack (the default name will accomplish this).

    CHANGELOG (first spoiler = most recent)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Sekigaharabattlesv02.pack
    Naval mod is now fully added in. I recommend faction pack 1 (there might be visual errors with archer texturing in other faction packs but should still be compatible)
    -In general bow ships are weak until fire arrow, boarding is more effective.
    - Rebalancing of naval unit stats and removal of the boarding stat bonus buff, so boarding should take longer on ships of equal troop number and quality
    - Matchlock ships should be more effective at killing troops than bow ships, but bow ships can set ships ablaze with fire arrow tech


    Kneel fire added to certain high ranking teppo samurai and matchlock samurai from Date.
    Shield deployable added for certain units (Kashira, etc.)
    - Unfortunately the AI doesn't seem to like to use these....


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    --- Sekigaharabattlesv01.pack ---
    Fixed bug with Naginata units causing game to crash

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    V0.65 (named zSekigaharabattlesv0 or something)

    - Cavalry now fight better when dismounted than when they are mounted. So you can use them to flank, charge, pull back and dismount before going into melee, or use them as a force that can quickly go around the enemy.

    -Samurai no longer smell bad (in other words, they are not spread out so much)

    -minor stat changes with Katana samurai. increased max number to match yari samurai, lowered charge, increased melee defense.

    -Yari samurai increased charge damage

    -Ashigaru Sharpshooters reload slower now. This combined with the fact matchlock samurai no longer spread out so damn much means that Matchlock samurai are a decent investment. Also matchlock samurai have higher armor values so they are better at absorbing arrows.

    -Only Samurai should have Sashimono. The reason for this is 1) better performance, 2) Aesthetically pleasing, so now only the samurai units (including the "officers" of ashigaru squads) have flags. An infantry unit still has the standard bearer for identification. This is historically accurate to an extent, I'm sure some clans had ashigaru outfitted with sashimono while others didn't. I went with the latter.

    v0.60 OPEN BETA
    I've increased the Japanese Naval Cannons to match the European cannons in damage. The Euro cannons still have quite a large range advantage over the Japanese ones.

    Horse movement speeds increased, making them return to a deadly force which can flank easily.

    Projectile damage returned to vanilla. The accuracy debuffs at 80 range are still in play, making long range archer / matchlock duels take longer. This also means that it is less effective to shoot at a unit with less men in it at range. Also means that units on walls have extra protection, because the archers will shoot fairly wide and either hit the wall or behind. Also increased flaming arrows chance to cause something to burn to balance this out.

    Some minor stat rebalancing, to make the yari samurai less of the obvious go-to for early samurai.

    Turn rates decreased for all infantry, so context camera isn't AS twitchy. Still is pretty twitchy when playing some animations, or returning to 1x speed after going slo-mo or fast forward.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    v0.55
    *Fixed crash relating to Su-Yari Ashigaru charges

    v0.5
    *Archers have a bit more ammo. It is possible I might lower this again and +to units ammo as either a bonus for commissioner of supply, or as something added on to one of the general skills.
    v0.4
    *Archers fire slightly faster now

    *Tweaked Vet bonuses

    * Increased run speeds and charge speeds of infantry. Reduced walking and run speeds of cavalry. Yari cav (and by extension Yari Taicho), have the highest run speed of cav.


    V 0.3
    * Units don't tire out so fast, in order to balance it with the slower run speeds

    *Missile units will have a greater chance for their shot to be inaccurate at ranges over 75. There are two settings that can be tweaked to change this effect. 1) The range at which shots become more inaccurate and 2) The maximum distance away from the original target the shot will land. These numbers will need tweaking, in order to balance bows vs dumb siege AI, but still not making them useless in land battles.

    *Max Ammo reduced quite a bit. Now it is quite a choice between having lots of ranged in an army, or a good balance. Ranged armies might run out of ammo faster than they can kill off the majority of the enemy forces, if conditions permit. Again, this number can be tweaked.

    * Increased movement speeds of infantry.


    Initial Release
    * Samurai no longer fight in perfect formation. This is because during a flank, they would just only have the front row engage... which didn't make them very effective. Now, they aren't as good as ashigaru as holding the line, but they shouldn't be so vulnerable when flanked, and they should be much more effective when they do the flanking.

    *Ranged units have less reload speed, and projectile damage is reworked so that armor should be more important, and kill rates lower in general. (Ashigaru will still die quite a bit :p). On that note, Fire Arrows will ignore armor, and have a slightly higher chance of lighting things on fire.

    * MOVEMENT SPEEDS REDUCED DRASTICALLY! This is to balance combat with the lower reload rates! This also makes cavalry much much MUCH more effective. Also units take longer to get up to max speed, so it is important to move in formation. Personally I like the way this plays out, but the numbers can be tweaked.
    In order to balance cavalry a little bit, the melee oriented cavalry no longer turn at double the rate of infantry. Because let's face it, after a charge and in the thick of a melee, it wouldn't be so easy to control your horse to turn around within a split second :p. But Foot Samurai do turn a bit faster in combat than other units. General rule of thumb for infantry speeds is this: The less armored the unit is (without any armorsmith bonuses or anything), the faster they will run (but not by a lot!).

    * I'm also using this to test my new WIP animations for su_yari_ashigaru. They will also use their spears in very noobish ways in addition to the katana

    *Starting to experiment with differing the II and sanada cavalry. So far the only change made is making II yari Cavalry better at fighting it out, while making the Sanada yari cav better at the charge.


    Next plans include:
    Rebalancing of unit cost and tech needed to build some.
    -Primarily intended to nerf long yari ashigaru coming out very quickly to counter samurai, also to make katana ashigaru and other ashigaru more appealing.
    -bugfixing
    -expanding the naval unit choices
    -more fine tuning of land unit battle stats
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Lokgar; December 09, 2013 at 06:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Lol O-Beta.



    Maybe next will be "Dai" Beta.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  3. #3

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I forgot to mention, you can select a unit and press Insert (or maybe Delete) to turn on the context camera. Got some awesome action shots today, so I think the reduced rotation rate helps a bit.

  4. #4

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Any of you 23 downloaders (all you fine people), have any comments? Or do you just all hate it :p?

  5. #5
    MagicCuboid's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I'll definitely be checking this out Lokgar, and I'll report back! Give me a few days as I'm not home right now . Were your changes based primarily on history, or on gameplay?
    "I've snapped and plotted all my life. There's no other way to be alive, king, and fifty all at once." - Henry II, The Lion in Winter

  6. #6

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Mostly gameplay, with some minor historical considerations (such as armies of the time being composed mostly of AShigaru, etc. but that is mostly handled in vanilla seki anyway). Really, any "historical" aspect would simply be related to slowing down the battles and making newly recruited ashigaru bad shots with bow and teppo :p. I plan on making cavalry uses more historical too, a force that is able to move quickly to dismount and flank, because it is my understand that cavalry generally would dismount before fighting, as it was difficult to fight on horseback, which can sort of be seen in the animations for cavalry, the horse keeps moving back and forth as the rider struggles to keep control and fight. Or charge into a lone troops and decimate them.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Mostly gameplay, with some minor historical considerations (such as armies of the time being composed mostly of AShigaru, etc. but that is mostly handled in vanilla seki anyway). Really, any "historical" aspect would simply be related to slowing down the battles and making newly recruited ashigaru bad shots with bow and teppo :p. I plan on making cavalry uses more historical too, a force that is able to move quickly to dismount and flank, because it is my understand that cavalry generally would dismount before fighting, as it was difficult to fight on horseback, which can sort of be seen in the animations for cavalry, the horse keeps moving back and forth as the rider struggles to keep control and fight. Or charge into a lone troops and decimate them.

    I'm hoping I can do something with sieges too. I just wish there was a way to make AI more likely to knock down gates rather than just going to a place and having everyone climb.

  8. #8
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    What does Obeta mean!? U a fan of O'bama?

  9. #9
    Akaie's Avatar Sangi Ukon'e no Chūjō
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    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Official beta .

    The S2 Onin War Mod | Boshin: Total Domains
    Patron of Erwin Rommel
    Under the proud patronage of Radious


  10. #10

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I actually meant for it to mean Open Beta, but I like Erwin's interpretation the most.

  11. #11
    MagicCuboid's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I love your idea about making cavalry more of a flanking dismount force. That's something I've attempted to simulate in my games, but have had some bad luck because the cavalry are generally poorer fighters on the ground than their (more numerous) infantry equivalents.

    Generally cavalry should probably have higher fighting ability than their infantry counterparts (eg Yari Cavalry vs. Yari Samurai), since they are probably of higher status since they ride a horse into battle. Their fewer numbers make up for this balance-wise, I think.

    Will we still see big anti-cav bonuses with the Yari? Technically I think the Naginata should have the higher anti-cav bonus and the lower attack, as that is why it was developed. The yari is a much more all-purpose design.


    I realized I could more easily just open up your pack and take a look . Overall I like the balance of stats for the infantry. Yari Samurai are the most numerous, have a very high defense, and a decent attack. Katana Samurai are less numerous, have a slightly higher attack, but half the defense (so great flanking force). As for Naginata, I appreciate that they represent a more "elite" force so their stats reflect that. I'm happy that their anti-cav bonus is equal to the yari!

    It seems that for cavalry you have kept the same principles of infantry - yari cavalry are good at charging against other cavalry (though a defense of 2 is very low indeed), katana cavalry are good at flanking and more sustained fighting. Have you released anything with your idea for cavalry to dismount and flank yet?
    Last edited by MagicCuboid; November 12, 2012 at 02:53 PM.
    "I've snapped and plotted all my life. There's no other way to be alive, king, and fifty all at once." - Henry II, The Lion in Winter

  12. #12

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Actually, the majority of those stats are from the base Sekigahara mod. I think I only changed the katana and yari samurai. It's mostly movement values to create this use for cavalry.
    My idea so far is that cavalry have (for the ones other than light) around the same amount of troops as the higher level samurai. So I might make their dismounted stats similar to say, a Naginata Samurai for the Yari cavs, and scale accordingly. Katana could be modeled off of the tachi guard, but still scaled. Their mounted stats then would have a decent amount of attack, but poor defense, and good charge, with the yari cav being the fastest. So if you want to stick and fight, even against katana, then you're gonna have to retreat a bit and dismount. Of course, yari would have poorer defense with this idea too, as it is harder to defend with a two handed yari on horse, than it is with a katana. You hit the delete key, right under insert while selecting a unit to enjoy some of the smoother infantry cam movements. combined with the slower movement speeds, it's pretty awesome in general imo :p.

    I also need to tweak range a bit, though I'm not too sure what to do with bow ashigaru. I might just increase their right of fire a bit, so they still kill ashigaru pretty well at medium range, and then increase samurai base armor...

  13. #13

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    So anyone at all :p? I've already put together a new pack with some minor adjustments, but I really would like some feedback from other players first.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Katana Samurai still feel like a waste of money, even with this mod.
    Onna Bushi seem spread out way too much that they look like they're permanently in loose formation.
    Ashiragu Sharpshooters are far better than Matchlock Samurai.
    I don't really feel the need to upgrade to samurai, since the unit cap is so low and I have to waste a building slot. It's a huge koku penalty when that building slot could be used for a market, theatre or even an inn.
    Cavalry is an even bigger waste of money since the AI rarely produces anything more dangerous than light cav and spears with huge 360 anti-cav bonuses are so common.
    Last edited by akp; November 27, 2012 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    The anti cav bonus is only 17, so all cav will still do decent damage on charge vs ashigaru, if dismounted they'll fight even better (the next pack will have an increase to their dismounted damage -- would this fix their problem?)
    There is a plan for a nerfing of sharpshooters already in the works, as well as giving samurai kneel fire in the hopes that will help them out a bit.
    I might scrap Katana Samurai all together, and buff Katana cavalry a bit more. So the first building in the sword chain would only be needed to get katana cav, or for the later katana units. The point being that Samurai armed with only katana is fairly unrealistic, as yari became the standard (well teppo by this time too).
    Again, the point about not needing to build samurai is pretty historical. By this point armies were composed of ashigaru (who were pretty much professional warriors) armed with teppo, spear, bow, etc. Poor samurai would, as far as I understand it, would also be armed with spear (or bow or teppo) (also spear was required while on castle duty, which is why the Retainers also are). Higher ranking samurai would have been mounted, and mounted combat was difficult, especially on spear, so cavalry was used more as a way to flank the enemy, dismount, and fight on foot while the rest of the army pushes in. Maybe I need to look into adjusting unit costs.
    Also the Onna Bushi issue is also around in vanilla sekigahara, I've put in a fix for the next version.

    And yeah, I'm trying to work on the AI to make them build more dangerous units. Thanks for the comments, I'm hoping the above fixes already planned solve some of them!

  16. #16

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Version updated. I meant to do this weeks ago, but I guess I forgot to do so... :p

    whooooops.

  17. #17

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I'll check it out when I have some free time. Keep up the good work!

  18. #18

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Thanks man and as always let me know of any suggestions. I forgot to put this in the changelog (which is now updated):
    "-Only Samurai should have Sashimono. The reason for this is 1) better performance, 2) Aesthetically pleasing, so now only the samurai units (including the "officers" of ashigaru squads) have flags. An infantry unit still has the standard bearer for identification. This is historically accurate to an extent, I'm sure some clans had ashigaru outfitted with sashimono while others didn't. I went with the latter."

  19. #19

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    I seem to be getting crashes whenever I use warrior monks,nuns in battle mode. I tested in custom battle with a warrior monk/nun vs a yari ashigaru and it crashes before it can load. Once I take out the OBETA submod the problem goes away. Hope there is a fix soon

  20. #20

    Default Re: [OBETA] Sekigahara Battles rebalance

    Sorry for not getting to this sooner, updated pack with the bugfix. Let me know if this doesn't solve the issue for you, seemed to wrok for me.

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