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Thread: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

  1. #1
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    I was doing a regular linebattle to test the new update.
    A line infantry against one line infantry.

    I perfectly knew that the ennemy was gonna fire when I will enter their range, make nearly no casualities and take ages to reload. That's why I did not fire my musketeers and gave them the order to charge when they entered ennemy's range.

    The problem is that as they were charging they took already two fire by rank volleys, and the ennemy reloaded and fired exaclty when I was preparing too fire my devastating volleys and my men routed not killing a single ennemy.


    I did not understand what happened until I take a look in the kv_rules tables :
    Fire by rank : 81 reload bonus.
    My first reaction? Create a mod that deletes all these bonuses !

    Fire on wall reload modifier => 0
    Fire by rank reload modifier => 0
    Fire and advance reload modifier => 10
    Platoon fire reload modifier => 5
    Improved platoon fire reload modifier => 10
    (the last three would have been useless without these bonuses...)


    HOW TO INSTALL ?

    Add :
    mod "reloadspeed.pack"; in the top of your user.script in Empire Total War/Data/IS folder

    Put :
    reloadspeed.pack in your Empire Total War/Data folder

    HOW TO UNINSTALL ?

    Remove :
    mod"reloadspeed.pack"; from the top of your user.script
    reloadspeed.pack from your Empire Total War/Data folder
    Last edited by Goutlard; October 20, 2012 at 07:00 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    how does this impact battles, does it make batlle too easy now?

  3. #3
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Infantry reloads slower in a more realistic way, and the battles are no more won by the army that fires first or has the most accuracy, as the distance where armies start to shoot each other is way more important now
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    ok, I 'll check this out,

    thanks & reps for the effort

  5. #5
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Thanks
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  6. #6
    Flikitos's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Nice idea buddy, so it consists in giving bonuses to the human player?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Changing the reload speed is one way of resolving that one issue, but I fear it may have unintended consequences in other areas. Generally, it is really the abnormally high casualty you suffer that causes the routes. Also, if this is a late war encounter, the cavalry should route if they charge directly into a line infantry.

    Generally, I think this will give too much of an advantage to the human player with no benefit to the AI. This will likely result in an easier game play. At least this is what my research and experiment seems to suggest.

    ---

  8. #8
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    @Flikitos : No, at the contrary we delete all the reload bonuses gave by firing drills exept the one gave by Platoon Fire/Improved Platoon Fire/Fire and Advance. I find it unrealistic to have the soldiers firing in drills reload faster. Why not fore F and A or Platton ? Because then these technologies would become pointless...

    @PikeStance : I agree with you on the point that it gives a significant advantage to the player in an only line infantry vs line infantry combat. Yet this advantage looses its weight in bigger battles, where well using the artillery firepower, placing perfect cavalry charges becomes more important. But this has to do with the AI, that, I agree, should have been less stupid (I cannot call the vanilla AI intelligent ! )
    But yet, the wierd thing about the system that is in this mod without this mod is that :
    -Infantry with no drills has a normal reloading, and victory clearly depends on who advances the further before firing in 1 line vs 1 line.
    -Infantry with fire by rank has a huge reloading bonus making the reloading stats nearly pointless
    -Infantry with platoon fire has a lower reloading bonus that makes this drill even worse compared to Fire By Rank.

    I did not edit the base reload speed in the projectile stats, or the reload skill in the unit stats, only removed most reload bonuses gave by the firing drills !
    But, even further, usually in a "normal" campaign, the player has the firing drills before the AI
    Last edited by Goutlard; October 20, 2012 at 07:14 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Yes, I ran into the platoon firing issue with my test. The French Guard unit just do not do very well. There seems to be two choices here; one artificially increase the platoon reload variable or increase the accuracy of the guard. Given they were elite the latter seems like a better idea. However, I am hesitant to make this suggestion until after people have a chance to test it for themselves. For the moment, I need to adjust the artillery and test light infantry in battle, then I will give everyone a go.

    ---

  10. #10
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Yes, I ran into the platoon firing issue with my test. The French Guard unit just do not do very well. There seems to be two choices here; one artificially increase the platoon reload variable or increase the accuracy of the guard. Given they were elite the latter seems like a better idea. However, I am hesitant to make this suggestion until after people have a chance to test it for themselves. For the moment, I need to adjust the artillery and test light infantry in battle, then I will give everyone a go.

    ---
    The point with platoon firing is that it should give a continuous firing. Do the units stop firing at one time or another ? I do not have enough time to test right now...

    At the time in the mod Platoon Firing does already have a +5 reload bonus, and improved platoon +10
    Last edited by Goutlard; October 20, 2012 at 10:52 AM.
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  11. #11
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    kv_rules are applied to all units whereas it is possible to create special projectiles for units, factions or era or to define a core_loading_skill and a core_marksmanship parameters for each unit (unit_stats_land).


    About reloading bonuses :
    • Fire on wall reload modifier :
      • it make sense to give a small bonus, men are protected by a wall and maybe less stressed by enemy fire ;
      • +5 bonus with 20s reloading base means they should be able to shoot every 19s
    • Fire by rank reload modifier :
      • I agree, I cannot see why they should have a reloading bonus
    • Fire and advance reload modifier :
      • should probably have a negative bonus, I think it is hard to fire, advance, reload, etc.
    • Platoon fire reload modifier :
      • same as fire by rank, shouldn't have any reloading time bonus
    • Improved platoon fire reload modifier :
      • same as fire by rank, shouldn't have any reloading time bonus


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  12. #12

    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Quote Originally Posted by Goutlard View Post
    The point with platoon firing is that it should give a continuous firing. Do the units stop firing at one time or another ? I do not have enough time to test right now...

    At the time in the mod Platoon Firing does already have a +5 reload bonus, and improved platoon +10
    In platoon firing, the platoon shoots from left to right. When it reaches the end, there is a small delay and it starts up on the left again. For some reason, this type of fire causes less casualties than other types of firing types. In one on one test. A unit that fires by rank will out shoot platoon fire.

    When it comes to rate of fire,... I welch on realism for more difficulty. I wanted to eliminate the human player from "timing" his charge between firing units. The timing should be based on sound tactics, not manipulation of the game- play. I am still playing with extreme numbers and I am working my way to a reasonable results. The yo- yo effect is gone, but I now have other issues,...LOL

    ----

  13. #13
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Quote Originally Posted by wangrin View Post
    kv_rules are applied to all units whereas it is possible to create special projectiles for units, factions or era or to define a core_loading_skill and a core_marksmanship parameters for each unit (unit_stats_land).


    About reloading bonuses :
    • Fire on wall reload modifier :
      • it make sense to give a small bonus, men are protected by a wall and maybe less stressed by enemy fire ;
      • +5 bonus with 20s reloading base means they should be able to shoot every 19s

    • Fire by rank reload modifier :
      • I agree, I cannot see why they should have a reloading bonus

    • Fire and advance reload modifier :
      • should probably have a negative bonus, I think it is hard to fire, advance, reload, etc.

    • Platoon fire reload modifier :
      • same as fire by rank, shouldn't have any reloading time bonus

    • Improved platoon fire reload modifier :
      • same as fire by rank, shouldn't have any reloading time bonus

    To me, the Fire On Walls should mostly increase accuracy, imagine soldiers less stressed of being shot spend more time to take AIM (The contrary of line infantry units that normally fire "where the smoke is" without really aiming.

    Between platoon fire and improved platoon fire there is no real difference but the reload bonus, it would make the technology useless. The same about the Platoon fire that would then be pointless compared to FBR

    As PikeStance said, the AI is a problem. The AI should, instead of opening fire exacly when the ennemies enter at range, advance and when they are close enough to earn advantage (I mean : AI fires, player looses enough troops to have its firepower significantry decreased and not be able to fire back as powerfully).
    This is what justifies the reload bonuses, but, personnally prefering gameplay realism over tactical difficulty I decided to adapt my gameplay to it and remove all these onuses.
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  14. #14
    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    We can hardly spoke about accuracy with XVIIIth musket.
    Tactics were not to really aim a target but to shoot more or less in the "right" direction.
    So accuracy is not an "accurate" parameter.

    The purpose was firepower, not accuracy.


    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

  15. #15
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Then they'll take probably more... time.. pointing the musket, in the right, direction... instead of just firing and crounching to not get shot !
    Well I'm thinking about how it is possible to make this realistic and beneficial to gameplay at the same time...
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  16. #16
    Swaldo_02's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: [released] Goutlard's death to reload bonuses !

    Download link?
    I was playing the Imperial Splendor mod and i couldn't agree with you more.

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